Westminster City Council demand immediate end to Class 68 operation into Marylebone due to pollution

[JonathanH]

For Chiltern, is the loco or the DVT at the Marylebone end?

Always the DVT at the Marylebone end.

 

[cjmillsnun]

No it won’t, diesel trains will continue to operate on lines that are electrified no matter what that climate bandwagon would like to see happening. And if electrification (which can’t be afforded everywhere) isn’t complete by the time diesel units need to be retired - and if alternative fuel vehicles aren’t available by then - more diesel trains will be bought.

They really won’t. As diesel becomes more expensive (and it will. It’s now over £1.50 a litre for cars and lorries right now with no signs of a price drop) then electrification or partial electrification and batteries will be the only way to provide a reasonably priced rail service.

 

[Grumbler]

They really won’t. As diesel becomes more expensive (and it will. It’s now over £1.50 a litre for cars and lorries right now with no signs of a price drop) then electrification or partial electrification and batteries will be the only way to provide a reasonably priced rail service.

But electricity is going up in price as well.

 

[Darandio]

But electricity is going up in price as well.

Well quite. Look at the current situation where it's cheaper for some freight operators to park up their electric fleet and use diesel instead because it's the cheaper option.

 

[Bikeman78]

Some transformer buzzes can be quite loud on some electric trains.

The transformer on 317338 is mega loud. If you stand in the door vestibule at the south end of the motor coach you can feel the buzzing through the floor.

The things should be shut down while stabled. Leaving them on is typical railway waste.

Some 377s usually stable for a week or more in Horsham over Christmas and New Year. Lights on and buzzing away the whole time. I wonder how much it costs to run the air con for all that time.

 

[TRAX]

The transformer on 317338 is mega loud. If you stand in the door vestibule at the south end of the motor coach you can feel the buzzing through the floor.


Some 377s usually stable for a week or more in Horsham over Christmas and New Year. Lights on and buzzing away the whole time. I wonder how much it costs to run the air con for all that time.

The air con is maybe turned off during these periods.

 

[HSTEd]

Many years ago there used to be shore supplies at Paddington for the HSTs.

One of the reasons it was given up, I was told, was that a shunter was needed to connect and disconnect the cables and that it was too easy for the driver to take power while the rear power car was still connected...

I suppose more effective interlocks may be possible these days.

Or just position the connector such that it will pull out without damage.

 

[Pete_uk]

Or just position the connector such that it will pull out without damage.

I'm sure I've seen fire engines have such a thing. The electric supply keeps the oil pump on and the oil hot to reduce wear on the engine. When they go out on a 'shout' they just drive out and the cable comes out and moves back to its default position slowly.

 

[Lockwood]

I'm sure I've seen fire engines have such a thing. The electric supply keeps the oil pump on and the oil hot to reduce wear on the engine. When they go out on a 'shout' they just drive out and the cable comes out and moves back to its default position slowly.

The shore lines on (most of) our ambulances auto eject.

There was guidance issued a fair while back encouraging us to use the auto eject rather than hand pulling the plug.

Maybe the railway doesn't want to have trains shoot power plugs across platforms when trains fire up though

 

[option]

At some point, likely soon, the railway will be litigated against for noise and pollution nuisance. The 68s, without shore supply, have proved unsuitable for regular use in residential areas. The railway can't save itself money and inconvenience others without consequences.

IANAL but, who is going to bring the litigation, & against whom?

If it's on noise nuisance grounds, then fencing along the station boundary with acoustic fencing, & possibly changes to the loco exhausts, could be enough of a defence. The defence may also be able to have the affected properties checked to ensure that they met any planning conditions on soundproofing & windows. If they don't...

If it's pollution, then that's going to need a lot of resources for monitoring equipment placed all around the residences concerned to find out where the pollution is coming from.
If you then sue Chiltern, where does it get you? They have no power to get electrification done.
The defence would also point out the greater sources of pollution in the area, & could presumably ask why the litigant isn't taking similar actions over those.



Maybe the residents of Marylebone should take a greater interest in their MP.
On 5 Feb 2020:Nickie Aiken voted not to call on the Government to develop and implement a plan to eliminate the substantial majority of transport emissions by 2030.

Nickie Aiken MP, Cities of London and Westminster

Read Nickie Aiken's contributions to Parliament, including speeches and questions, investigate their voting record, and get email alerts on their activity

www.theyworkforyou.com

But electricity is going up in price as well.

Electricity prices have gone up because gas prices have gone up, & gas is pretty much the only fossil fuel used for electricity generation in the UK.* As more renewables are connected to the grid, the impact of gas prices on the electricity price gets reduced.
As an example, wind has been 39% of electricity generation so far today, with gas at 20%.


*There are now only 2 coal power stations left on mainland UK

 

[tomuk]

IANAL but, who is going to bring the litigation, & against whom?

If it's on noise nuisance grounds, then fencing along the station boundary with acoustic fencing, & possibly changes to the loco exhausts, could be enough of a defence. The defence may also be able to have the affected properties checked to ensure that they met any planning conditions on soundproofing & windows. If they don't...

If it's pollution, then that's going to need a lot of resources for monitoring equipment placed all around the residences concerned to find out where the pollution is coming from.
If you then sue Chiltern, where does it get you? They have no power to get electrification done.
The defence would also point out the greater sources of pollution in the area, & could presumably ask why the litigant isn't taking similar actions over those.



Maybe the residents of Marylebone should take a greater interest in their MP.
On 5 Feb 2020:Nickie Aiken voted not to call on the Government to develop and implement a plan to eliminate the substantial majority of transport emissions by 2030.

Nickie Aiken MP, Cities of London and Westminster

Read Nickie Aiken's contributions to Parliament, including speeches and questions, investigate their voting record, and get email alerts on their activity

www.theyworkforyou.com

Electricity prices have gone up because gas prices have gone up, & gas is pretty much the only fossil fuel used for electricity generation in the UK.* As more renewables are connected to the grid, the impact of gas prices on the electricity price gets reduced.
As an example, wind has been 39% of electricity generation so far today, with gas at 20%.


*There are now only 2 coal power stations left on mainland UK

All rolling stock and railway operations have a statutory authority defence against proceedings for noise nuisance under section 122 of the Railway Act 1993. Premises such as station building don't. So you can't sue the railway for a noisy 68 but you could for a noisy station announcer

 

[Irascible]

Electricity prices have gone up because gas prices have gone up, & gas is pretty much the only fossil fuel used for electricity generation in the UK.* As more renewables are connected to the grid, the impact of gas prices on the electricity price gets reduced.
As an example, wind has been 39% of electricity generation so far today, with gas at 20%.


*There are now only 2 coal power stations left on mainland UK

And the other day wind was about 10% all day, low enough to bring some coal generation online. At some point I can see prices ending up changing daily ( which for domestic users who can change their usage a bit might not be the worst idea anyway ) if there's some sort of direct emissions tax. Until we really sort our supply, swapping everything to electric is somewhat just shoving the problem into someone else's backyard.

 

[tomuk]

And the other day wind was about 10% all day, low enough to bring some coal generation online. At some point I can see prices ending up changing daily ( which for domestic users who can change their usage a bit might not be the worst idea anyway ) if there's some sort of direct emissions tax. Until we really sort our supply, swapping everything to electric is somewhat just shoving the problem into someone else's backyard.

Electricity prices vary by the half hour. Traditionally only the larger industrial users have paid half hourly and they have the ability to vary demand to avoid paying the highest prices. The highest are usually around 1700 in Dec, Jan Feb.
Half Hourly tariffs are available to end consumers now, such as Octopus Agile, they are only really beneficial if you can vary your demand eg Car Charging, Solar, Battery Storage

 

[t_star2001uk]

The shore lines on (most of) our ambulances auto eject.

There was guidance issued a fair while back encouraging us to use the auto eject rather than hand pulling the plug.

Maybe the railway doesn't want to have trains shoot power plugs across platforms when trains fire up though

What voltage are you talking about for Ambulances...

 

[zwk500]

If Vivarail's fast charge system proves to work, presumably that would be relatively simple to use for shore supply? The main difficulty will be working out a place on both train and track where the system can sit without getting in the way of some other piece of equipment like an AWS magnet of the TPWS grids. It would also make introducing battery-EMUs easier for when the electrification gets going in earnest (I can dream! lol).

 

[Wyrleybart]

If Vivarail's fast charge system proves to work, presumably that would be relatively simple to use for shore supply? The main difficulty will be working out a place on both train and track where the system can sit without getting in the way of some other piece of equipment like an AWS magnet of the TPWS grids. It would also make introducing battery-EMUs easier for when the electrification gets going in earnest (I can dream! lol).

An that is the real big problem at the moment. You need TOC Rosco NR ORR and RSSB to all agree and fund an operation and I imagine that would be an exercise in cat herding, although DfT and GBR should make that much easier.

I believe one of the most obvious battery test routes would be the Glasgow Queen St - Anniesland service. The unit could sit charging under the OLE in Glasgow, then use AC to climb Cowlairs tunnel the most onerous part of the journey, the unit would then drop it's pan and run on battery to Anniesland. I assume they use the bay platform which is not wired, but at modest cost I imagine an overhead charging wire could be installed "jumped" from the main platforms. But even then the battery usage would so small for the journey back to Cowlairs where the pan goes back up. But..... the motors should top up the batteries anyway running back down the tunnel into Glasgow Queen St where the cycle repeats.

Logic to me would be to convert a 321 into a battery 320/4 or 320/9 by removing the trailer car then fitting batteries in the other cars. This could be trialled on the Anniesland service before acting as a pathfinder for other battery conversions.

 

[philthetube]

Would shore supply even need wires, a short length of third rail, activated only when a train is over it and a pickup shoe on the train would do the job.

 

[Elecman]

Would shore supply even need wires, a short length of third rail, activated only when a train is over it and a pickup shoe on the train would do the job.

Depends if you need 3 phase for any auxiliaries and also if the track circuits are immunised For return current

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Depends if you need 3 phase for any auxiliaries and also if the track circuits are immunised For return current

Though if you sort the immunisation out for a shore supply, that's one job already sorted when you eventually do electrify.

 

[Lockwood]

What voltage are you talking about for Ambulances...

Mains.

I was responding more to the fire engine comment than the train side of things (its a fairer comparison road vehicle v road vehicle)

 

[island]

Hopefully with COP26 over tomorrow the focus will go and it’ll all be put on the back burner again.

They'll have one final shout about all the Voyagers running under the wires today after a dozen or so Pendos got trapped in Wolves depot by a derailment

 

[tomuk]

Though if you sort the immunisation out for a shore supply, that's one job already sorted when you eventually do electrify.

Depends if you need 3 phase for any auxiliaries and also if the track circuits are immunised For return current

The Chiltern Mk3s use standard ETH so are supplied at 1000V AC or DC there are Static Converters on each carriage to covert to 415v 3 phase AC

 

[ed1971]

They really will and it does matter what is being said now to appease the tree huggers and the band wagon riders in Glasgow. The Treasury has effectively said “no more money” for large electrification projects so if the rail industry hasn’t found a viable alternative means of providing traction, more diesels will be procured simply because the only other choice (shutting parts of the network) will be even worse, politically and maybe even environmentally.

I believe from what I've read in the past, that EMUs cost around a third less to operate than DMUs once the overhead wiring is in place.

Some infill electrification schemes would be welcomed, such as Wigan NW to Lostock Jct and Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge, to enable longer electric units to operate on these routes.

I am finding that despite the busy run up to Christmas, many Northern services are being short formed since the Pacers were retired and the ongoing problems with the Class 769s.

On the subject of diesel engines, there are virtually emission free diesels these days, with a 98% Nox reduction since 1988.

Why Diesel Isn't Dirty

With a higher degree of certainty than ever before, we can say that diesel is a clean technology.

www.dieselforum.org

I see that there are moves to introduce Hydrogen trains onto the UK rail network and Bio-mode units using Lithium batteries. I am still worried about how safe these would be in a crash, as lithium batteries can blow up if punctured or heated up. This electric bus blowing up while parked illustrates the point;