We've got the Key, it's no secret... (Smartcards on GTR)

[mattdickinson]

According to the latest Key map, the Key is now valid on the shuttle bus from Luton Airport Parkway to Luton Airport. Does anyone know if this is actually the case?

 

[mattdickinson]

It looks like KeyGo north of London might actually launch this month, with a new availability map, and terms & conditions dated 24th January 2018.

 

[jon0844]

About time. This has been in the works for so long I almost forgot about it.

 

[philjo]

Still not valid north of Foxton.

 

[GoByThameslink]

Still not valid north of Foxton.

I've been told this is due to incompatibilities with the smart card readers on the gates at Cambridge which are operated by Greater Anglia. Fixing this is on the to do list, but I don't have a date, other than I am pretty sure it is not "soon".

It looks like KeyGo north of London might actually launch this month, with a new availability map, and terms & conditions dated 24th January 2018.

It has been working for sometime - I was tipped off that it was all working back in September and successfully used it without issue. At the time I had to enable my Key card for KeyGo via the website. Just taken a look at https://ticket.thameslinkrailway.com/account/smartcard-tickets and I can now see my KeyGo balance and payment card.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

It looks like KeyGo north of London might actually launch this month, with a new availability map, and terms & conditions dated 24th January 2018.

Thanks, due to southern not staffing my local ticket office for several months now, and frequently out of order ticket machines, the key might now be useful.

However it looks like still can't use it to travel to shepherds bush, since it says you can't use it on TFL trains services, so guess that means its won't be valid on london overground trains between clapham jct and shepherds bush. Which makes it a much less flexible ticket for the same cost, what a sick joke.

 

[Hadders]

I've been told this is due to incompatibilities with the smart card readers on the gates at Cambridge which are operated by Greater Anglia. Fixing this is on the to do list, but I don't have a date, other than I am pretty sure it is not "soon".


It has been working for sometime - I was tipped off that it was all working back in September and successfully used it without issue. At the time I had to enable my Key card for KeyGo via the website. Just taken a look at https://ticket.thameslinkrailway.com/account/smartcard-tickets and I can now see my KeyGo balance and payment card.

They'll need to upgrade the gates at Liverpool Street as well as a Cambridge - London Terminals Any Permitted ticket held on The Key is valid into Liverpool Street (and Stratford)...

 

[BluePenguin]

I got the key, I got the secret" - love it!

But it is no secret that "The Key" has failed and unlocks nothing...

The trouble is that none of these keys will unlock quick and easy payment options unless they are made to work universally across the country. Until then, passengers are effectively locked out. Will the DfT unlock the door of hope so passengers can seamlessly pass through the gates, onto their trains and to their front doors?

On a serious note, I can't understand why it is so difficult to have a central system which all keys are linked to and access regardless of tickets stored or the TOC that provided them.

Oyster cards work fluidly across a range of transport - Underground, Thameslink, Buses, DLR and even Riverboat and suburban rail services. However none of these keys seem to be able to do anything remotely similar. Some of them struggle to work the barriers of one single company!

 

[Tunnel Bore]

However it looks like still can't use it to travel to shepherds bush, since it says you can't use it on TFL trains services, so guess that means its won't be valid on london overground trains between clapham jct and shepherds bush. Which makes it a much less flexible ticket for the same cost, what a sick joke.

If you have a season ticket with relevant TfL Zones included it works the LU/LO barriers just fine and busses and trams. I've been using that for last three years. In the early days some card readers on busses would fail and it was hard to convince he driver it was a valid card but that hasn't happened for some time.

 

[mattdickinson]

If you have a season ticket with relevant TfL Zones included it works the LU/LO barriers just fine and busses and trams. I've been using that for last three issue years. In the early days some card readers on busses would fail and it was hard to convince he driver it was a valid card but that hasn't happened for some time.

According to the T&Cs KeyGo won't be valid on TfL. It can't be a technical issue as it will be valid for journeys between LUL gatelines such as Kentish Town to Farringdon.

 

[Hadders]

According to the T&Cs KeyGo won't be valid on TfL. It can't be a technical issue as it will be valid for journeys between LUL gatelines such as Kentish Town to Farringdon.

Tickets between Cambridge and London Terminals are routed 'Any Permitted' or 'Greater Anglia Only'. There is no 'Great Northern Only' option (nor, as I understand it, is one allowed as GTR set the Any Permitted fare).

Any ticket between Cambridge and London Terminals held on The Key must therefore be an Any Permitted one which is valid into Liverpool Street. Greater Anglia and London Overground therefore have to accept them. I'm sure any journey using GA or LO wouldn't be hassle free but GTR cannot introduce illegal restrictions. They tried to do this between Stevenage and Kings Cross with The Key and had to get it changed.

This is the sort of flexibility RDG/DfT want to remove....

 

[trevmonk]

Anyone who uses a railcard won't be tempted by a system that can't offer them the discount they normally enjoy. No mention of carnet tickets either. So, although I do have a Key card somewhere I won't be getting it out to activate KeyGo and will just stick to carrying a railcard and an Oyster.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

If you have a season ticket with relevant TfL Zones included it works the LU/LO barriers just fine and busses and trams. I've been using that for last three years. In the early days some card readers on busses would fail and it was hard to convince he driver it was a valid card but that hasn't happened for some time.

yes, but I don't need or want a travelcard, the point to point fare weekly fare is about £10 less than the 2-6 travelcard one.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Tickets between Cambridge and London Terminals are routed 'Any Permitted' or 'Greater Anglia Only'. There is no 'Great Northern Only' option (nor, as I understand it, is one allowed as GTR set the Any Permitted fare).

Any ticket between Cambridge and London Terminals held on The Key must therefore be an Any Permitted one which is valid into Liverpool Street. Greater Anglia and London Overground therefore have to accept them. I'm sure any journey using GA or LO wouldn't be hassle free but GTR cannot introduce illegal restrictions. They tried to do this between Stevenage and Kings Cross with The Key and had to get it changed.

This is the sort of flexibility RDG/DfT want to remove....

I guess LO must be able to ticket check a key, since they have been selling travelcard fares for a while.

My paper tickets permit me to use southern or LO, so are you saying this is also illegal restriction?

So who should I report this to? GTR first or RDG or DfT.

 

[Hadders]

I guess LO must be able to ticket check a key, since they have been selling travelcard fares for a while.

My paper tickets permit me to use southern or LO, so are you saying this is also illegal restriction?

So who should I report this to? GTR first or RDG or DfT.

A paper ticket from Cambridge to London Terminals route: Any Permitted is valid into Kings Cross, Moorgate and Liverpool Street (including via Stratford if desired)
A ticket held on The Key from Cambridge to London Terminals has to have an Any Permitted route and the same validity as the equivalent paper ticket. GTR are illegally trying to restrict these tickets to the Great Northern route only.

A paper ticket from Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 route: Any Permitted is valid on the same routes between Cambridge and London as indicated above plus on all rail, tube and bus services in zones 1-6 (except HS1, Heathrow Express etc)
A ticket held on The Key from Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 has to have an Any Permitted route and the same validity as the equivalent paper ticket.

I'd report it to all of them as well as London Travelwatch as well.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

I'd report it to all of them as well as London Travelwatch as well.

Thanks. I've noticed using brfares.com, for this same route smart day tickets (neither single or returns) are not available, smart day tickets are still restricted to travelcards only.

However I wonder what I would be charged if I used Keygo and only used southern trains. It says your charged the best day fare for your travel, which for a paper ticket would be a point to point ticket, but that isn't available on a smartcard, so I suspect it would charge the more expensive travel card price, which would be grossly unfair if you made a one way journey.

 

[Hadders]

I think you'll need to wait until Keygo launches formally.

 

[Failed Unit]

I got around to attempting to add keyGo onto my key card today and failed. No mention of it at all on the Great Northern version of the website? I assume that it isn't available on this part yet.

Must admit the key to me is a big flop.

OK I don't need to replace the ticket as often as I would if I had a paper season - because of demagnetisation. However. Pay as you go - not around yet (despite oyster having the capability for nearly 15 years)
Still no Carnet's on them. GTR admit this is thier most fraudently abused tickets, but they are still not using technology to combat it. Surely if you tap in on the key it activate a carnet, if you tap out instantly (because the train is cancelled for example) then it deactivates it. I just find it amazing they are happy to let people defraud the railway when the key could stop this instantly...

Actually I have found it - coming soon - but so is Christmas...

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/tickets/smartcards-oyster-and-plusbus/the-key-smartcard/keygo

 

[philjo]

Use keyGo to travel on Metrobus and Brighton & Hove buses.

The advertised bus companies won't be much use to GN passengers....

 

[Failed Unit]

The advertised bus companies won't be much use to GN passengers....

I understand now. It will be available to Great Northern when Arriva and UNO can accept it.

 

[JaJaWa]

I understand now. It will be available to Great Northern when Arriva and UNO can accept it.

Doubt it, the valid companies are also part of Go-Ahead. Don't think anyone other than TfL / a combined authority could negotiate to allow it to be used on a 'rival' operator.

 

[plcd1]

This may be relevant here as there is a Ticketing Conference going on today and Railway Gazette are tweeting from it.

This quote was recently tweeted and is relevant to what GTR are doing with TfL. Looks like something potentially clever around Key Go usage on the TfL network and beyond.

iBlocks, which supplies the technology behind Govia Thameslink Railway’s Key smart card, tells @MetroReportInt that discussions to enable outboundary Travelcard/fare capped use across TfL services are progressing well.

 

[mattdickinson]

This may be relevant here as there is a Ticketing Conference going on today and Railway Gazette are tweeting from it.

This quote was recently tweeted and is relevant to what GTR are doing with TfL. Looks like something potentially clever around Key Go usage on the TfL network and beyond.

Some functionality should have been implemented with ITSO on Prestige.

"However, Cubic do support the Southern PAYG season (TYP 22 PTYP 4) where charging is managed within the Southern Backoffice."

 

[paul1609]

Anyone who uses a railcard won't be tempted by a system that can't offer them the discount they normally enjoy. No mention of carnet tickets either. So, although I do have a Key card somewhere I won't be getting it out to activate KeyGo and will just stick to carrying a railcard and an Oyster.

Souf of the river we can use Railcards on the Key, I expect eventually the north (of the river) will catch up.

 

[JaJaWa]

Souf of the river we can use Railcards on the Key, I expect eventually the north (of the river) will catch up.

With keyGo? Railcard and other discounts are NOT available on keyGo and are excluded from the “best fare” and “flat fare” offers.

Looks like 31 January for the expansion.

 

[KatieLouLou]

To clarify a few points; A season ticket from Cambridge shouldn't be available on The Key (for the interoperability reasons stated) so questions of validity on GN only or to Liverpool Street are a moot point. They may be available on the GA version of a smartcard, but no idea as to the validity of that or whether they offer "Any Permitted" or just GA only.

KeyGo registrations were temporarily unavailable to avoid customers signing up to the old T&Cs. Should be back shortly if it isn't yet.

 

[mattdickinson]

To clarify a few points; A season ticket from Cambridge shouldn't be available on The Key (for the interoperability reasons stated) so questions of validity on GN only or to Liverpool Street are a moot point. They may be available on the GA version of a smartcard, but no idea as to the validity of that or whether they offer "Any Permitted" or just GA only.

KeyGo registrations were temporarily unavailable to avoid customers signing up to the old T&Cs. Should be back shortly if it isn't yet.

According to the Greater Anglia season ticket webpage tickets are available on their smartcard both to Liverpool Street valid only on Greater Anglia, and to London Terminals by any permitted route (for a higher price)

 

[Hadders]

According to the Greater Anglia season ticket webpage tickets are available on their smartcard both to Liverpool Street valid only on Greater Anglia, and to London Terminals by any permitted route (for a higher price)

It therefore follows that the Any Permitted version must be accepted at stations on the Kings Cross route and by VTEC and Hull Trains between Kings Cross and Stevenage. It must also be accepted by London Underground on the inter-available route between Finsbury Park/Kings Cross/Moorgate.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

I've had a closer read of the new keygo conditions, and there are a couple of things that alarmed me

9.1.2 Day Tickets
For Journeys to be attributed to pre-purchased Day Tickets, you must touch “in” and
touch “out” at the origin and destination of your ticket. Journeys made between
stations not specified as the origin and destination will be charged using keyGo.

So if you have a day ticket and keygo enabled you can't start and/or end at an intermediate stations which would be allowed by a paper ticket, instead they charge keygo, when you have a perfectly valid "smart" ticket.

I don't know if you don't have keygo enabled if you can start and/or end at a intermediate station with a smart day ticket on the key.

10.1 If you believe you have been charged the wrong fare for the journeys you
have made on a particular day, please contact Customer Services. You have until
the Wednesday following the date of travel to query the fare. After this time, it will
not be possible to amend.

Not sure if I'm misreading it, and what is special about Wednesdays, but does that mean if I travel on a Tuesday, and have to check I've been charged correctly the next day (wednesday) or I can't query. However if I travel on a Wednesday I have a whole week.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It therefore follows that the Any Permitted version must be accepted at stations on the Kings Cross route and by VTEC and Hull Trains between Kings Cross and Stevenage. It must also be accepted by London Underground on the inter-available route between Finsbury Park/Kings Cross/Moorgate.

Definitely valid on VTEC both GA and GTR smartcard seasons