We've got the Key, it's no secret... (Smartcards on GTR)

[jon0844]

Stickers now on readers suggest Hatfield is indeed NOT getting Oyster acceptance next month.

 

[Aictos]

Stickers now on readers suggest Hatfield is indeed NOT getting Oyster acceptance next month.

That would be down to TfL, however seeing as it's a DfT requirement that the TSGN franchise has to introduce it by or from the 30th September I do wonder how DfT will react to it.

Unless all parties have agreed to delay the rollout of Oyster until Greater Anglia are ready and when they've finalised the zones for Gatwick, Luton, Hertford and Welwyn GC for example?

 

[jon0844]

Hertford East will have it by then won't it? That's going to confuse things a bit.

 

[Aictos]

Hertford East will have it by then won't it? That's going to confuse things a bit.

I dunno fella, this is DfT and TfL we're talking about.

 

[jon0844]

Given the fuss over changing tickets prematurely for Hertford Stations, it's going to be confusing if Hertford East gets Oyster but Hertford North doesn't, as it would appear is going to be the case now.

 

[JaJaWa]

I heard from a revenue manager at GTR that Hertford would get Oyster in a capped zone, and Gatwick and Luton Airports will get it as a PAYG deduction only (as on Southeastern high speed and the Emirates Air Line). When TfL moves to back-office Oyster in 2016, intermediate stations to Gatwick and Luton Airports and other planned extensions can happen as more zones are possible.

 

[jon0844]

Thanks for that. I hope they'll make the new day fares that exist available, and not just have it for season tickets when it launches - as suggested on the sticker.

Edit: I've heard elsewhere that we might be getting the carnets put on The Key soon? If so, that's going to be awesome news.

 

[Stats]

Stickers now on readers suggest Hatfield is indeed NOT getting Oyster acceptance next month.

I read it the same way as you, but just a thought that we're reading it wrong. Perhaps, as many people have Oyster/contactless, that it is saying that you cannot use the validator to validate them and use them for travel now?

It would make more sense, I think, to launch Oyster/contactless when GTR move to single leg pricing next year.

 

[Aictos]

Thanks for that. I hope they'll make the new day fares that exist available, and not just have it for season tickets when it launches - as suggested on the sticker.

Edit: I've heard elsewhere that we might be getting the carnets put on The Key soon? If so, that's going to be awesome news.

1.

Extension of Zonal Fares 11.2

The Franchise shall use reasonable endeavours to extend Oyster PAYG to those areas bounded by and including the Stations located at Epsom, Gatwick Airport, Luton Airport Parkway, Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North by 30 September 2015 provided that the Franchisee and the Secretary of State agree that the terms of such introduction are not detrimental to the overall commercial position of the Franchise.

I've highlighted the text in bold that is the interesting bit of the requirement, I wonder what the DfT's view of reasonable endeavours is.

2.

The only The Key products available from Day 1 of it being available between London Terminals and Royston/Huntingdon are full price season tickets (both point to point and travelcards) so no carnets will not be made immediately available sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

3.

The Key will then from the New Year offer a extended range of products so may include carnets then.

 

[jon0844]

I'll have to check what's at WGC then as someone said there was a sign about changes to carnets. Maybe just giving out a pen then!

 

[talldave]

3. The Key will then from the New Year offer a extended range of products so may include carnets then.

Based on previous missed launch deadlines of The Key in the Southern area, I'd question which year's New Year is being referred to.

 

[Stats]

2.

The only The Key products available from Day 1 of it being available between London Terminals and Royston/Huntingdon are full price season tickets (both point to point and travelcards) so no carnets will not be made immediately available sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

It is a franchise requirement that, subject to the successful introduction of ITSO media and the agreement of the Secretary of State, that carnet based season tickets shall be available on the Key throughout the franchise area by 30 September 2015.

 

[Aictos]

I'll have to check what's at WGC then as someone said there was a sign about changes to carnets. Maybe just giving out a pen then!

As GTR have stated in the internal briefs, carnets are NOT going to be available from the launch of the Key on the GN and TL routes because they want to ensure there are no issues with it and are targeting the people who would benefit most from the introduction.

When the New Year comes around, then as was the case when The Key was introduced on the SN routes, more and more products will become available as time goes by.

As to mention of the carnets, as far as I am aware from the internal briefs they will still be available but only on paper tickets as to you being told of changes to them I can confirm there are NO instructions being issued in the internal briefs which say they will see changes, the person you spoke to was probably confused!

Based on previous missed launch deadlines of The Key in the Southern area, I'd question which year's New Year is being referred to.

I'm guessing 2016 is what they're referring to here.

It is a franchise requirement that, subject to the successful introduction of ITSO media and the agreement of the Secretary of State, that carnet based season tickets shall be available on the Key throughout the franchise area by 30 September 2015.

I disagree because the internal training briefs make no mention of carnets just point to point season tickets and travelcards, as far as I'm aware a carnet is not a point to point season because the carnets were designed for regular users who travel either in peak or off peak but who don't travel often enough to buy a season ticket.

When does the key launch on GTR?

From 30 September 2015, passengers will be able to purchase full priced season tickets (both point to point & Travelcards) from stations outside of London on both the Thameslink and the Great Northern routes with the exception of stations north of Huntingdon and Royston, and stations south of Orpington and St Mary Cray.
On the Southern and Gatwick Express routes, the existing key card offer will continue. For full details of what is on offer please visit www.southernrailway.com/thekey

Nowhere in that brief does it mention carnets, they might be available from the New Year but they won't be available from the 30th September!

 

[Stats]

I disagree because the internal training briefs make no mention of carnets just point to point season tickets and travelcards, as far as I'm aware a carnet is not a point to point season because the carnets were designed for regular users who travel either in peak or off peak but who don't travel often enough to buy a season ticket.

When does the key launch on GTR?

From 30 September 2015, passengers will be able to purchase full priced season tickets (both point to point & Travelcards) from stations outside of London on both the Thameslink and the Great Northern routes with the exception of stations north of Huntingdon and Royston, and stations south of Orpington and St Mary Cray.
On the Southern and Gatwick Express routes, the existing key card offer will continue. For full details of what is on offer please visit www.southernrailway.com/thekey

Nowhere in that brief does it mention carnets, they might be available from the New Year but they won't be available from the 30th September!

You may disagree, but it's there in black and white in the franchise agreement.

Subject to the successful introduction and operation of an ITSO Certified
Smartmedia ticketing system in accordance with paragraph 1 2 . 1 and obtaining
the approval of the Secretary of State, the Franchisee shall on or before 30
September 2015 introduce carnet-based season tickets based on ITSO Certified
Smartmedia (namely the smartcard known as “The Key” which is to be
introduced by the Franchisee and is compliant with the ITSO specification)
throughout the Franchise.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Any Carnet type product that is to be introduce, whenever it will be introduced, is likely to be based on the flexiSeason trial that Southern ran on selected routes last year.
www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/flexiseason-faq

About flexiSeason?
flexiSeason is a trial of a carnet-type product which allows customers to buy up to 50 ‘passes’ at a time which are valid for three months. This is especially useful for customers who travel regularly but not more than three times each week, so for whom a weekly season ticket doesn’t represent good value.

The flexiSeason is based on a weekly season ticket price but can be used flexibly across a number of days. This means that you only pay for the days you travel on. The trial is operating with a limited group of customers in a small area, and depending upon the results, will be rolled out across the rest of the network.

How does the flexiSeason work?
At the start of each day’s travel, one pass will be deducted from the number of passes held on the key smartcard. For example, if you buy 10 passes and travel for two days during the first week you will still have eight passes left with a validity of three months to be used at any time during that period.

Purchasing from a TVM: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...RRmCg0&usg=AFQjCNHnW_nffxetetqouOtvE3qbyi5jUw

A DfT minister wrote to the Hove MP in July stating they were discussing with GTR about the frachise obligations to introduce flexible season tickets by 30 September 2015.
www.brightonandhovenews.org/2015/07...commuters-kicked-into-long-grass-says-hove-mp

“The department is also considering a report by Southern Railway on their flexible ticketing trial and is discussing with Govia Thameslink Railways and c2c their franchise obligations to introduce flexible ticketing products by 30 September 2015 and 31 May 2016 respectively.”

 

[Aictos]

You may disagree, but it's there in black and white in the franchise agreement.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Any Carnet type product that is to be introduce, whenever it will be introduced, is likely to be based on the flexiSeason trial that Southern ran on selected routes last year.
www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/flexiseason-faq


Purchasing from a TVM: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...RRmCg0&usg=AFQjCNHnW_nffxetetqouOtvE3qbyi5jUw

A DfT minister wrote to the Hove MP in July stating they were discussing with GTR about the frachise obligations to introduce flexible season tickets by 30 September 2015.
www.brightonandhovenews.org/2015/07...commuters-kicked-into-long-grass-says-hove-mp

Well for some reason there is nothing about this in internal briefs, hence why I posted what I said - it also says that Oyster is meant to be available from the 30th September but that looks to be delayed so there's every chance that even though carnets are to be available from the 30th September there is every chance that they won't be available and as such will be delayed until the new year regardless of what any franchise agreement says.

 

[jon0844]

The person who told me about the carnets is just an 'ordinary' passenger who posted on a Facebook page about the area, not specifically rail, so there must be something if the general public are being told about it.

It could well be the flexible season mentioned, which would serve much the same purpose as (peak) carnets.

 

[mattdickinson]

The TSGN Key map is now on the Thameslink website.

 

[jon0844]

So no day tickets, despite the fares existing. What a shame!

 

[Envy123]

The TSGN Key map is now on the Thameslink website.

Wow, a lot of availability, I'm impressed.

Still don't know about VTEC and Stevenage, bound to be confusion!

 

[JaJaWa]

The TSGN Key map is now on the Thameslink website.

An actual GTR route map at last!

I'm pretty sure the Key is valid on other operators along the routes shown (eg Virgin Trains East Coast).

 

[Aictos]

I asked my manager to clarify the Key products and officially Season Tickets of 1 month and more to start with followed gradually by a roll out of everything out.

Nothing on Carnets, Flexible Seasons or Oyster though.

 

[jon0844]

How frustrating that day tickets are there, but we won't be able to get them.

Or perhaps we will if we book online and have them sent to the TVM, subject to the three day delay?

I am not going to try using mine again until it's official though. Had my fun. I rather wished for Oyster but realised quite early on this wasn't going to happen.

 

[Aictos]

How frustrating that day tickets are there, but we won't be able to get them.

Or perhaps we will if we book online and have them sent to the TVM, subject to the three day delay?

I am not going to try using mine again until it's official though. Had my fun. I rather wished for Oyster but realised quite early on this wasn't going to happen.

That's just it, it's rather confusing at the moment what is available :cry:

What I don't understand is why you can buy a ticket at a TVM and have it applied to your Key in mins but if you buy online, you have to wait 2 hours before being allowed to collect it and only at the specific station you entered online.

Surely when you buy online and you have to collect your tickets, you can do at any station which has the TVMs set up for you to do so you don't have to use specific stations so why not for the Key?

Why do you have to wait 2 hours before picking up your tickets?

 

[jon0844]

It told me three days when I tried, and even when using the TVM I could only buy a ticket for use in three days time, even though I could actually apply it to my Key in advance. It's why I have no intention of using the Key again until all of that is sorted out.

It's somewhat confusing, and by the sounds of it, won't get any less confusing after September 30th.

To be honest, I am not sure why you'd even need to go via a TVM to download a ticket to your Key. Surely just tapping in at the same station would (sorry, should) work?

 

[Stats]

It told me three days when I tried, and even when using the TVM I could only buy a ticket for use in three days time, even though I could actually apply it to my Key in advance. It's why I have no intention of using the Key again until all of that is sorted out.

No it didn't. It told you there were no delivey options available. It also told you, if purchasing a Southern Daysave you needed to do so 3 days before travel. The Southern Daysave has nothing to do with The Key.

To be honest, I am not sure why you'd even need to go via a TVM to download a ticket to your Key. Surely just tapping in at the same station would (sorry, should) work?

You don't collect from the TVM if purchased online. You collect from the gate or standalone validator.

What I don't understand is why you can buy a ticket at a TVM and have it applied to your Key in mins but if you buy online, you have to wait 2 hours before being allowed to collect it and only at the specific station you entered online.

Surely when you buy online and you have to collect your tickets, you can do at any station which has the TVMs set up for you to do so you don't have to use specific stations so why not for the Key?

Why do you have to wait 2 hours before picking up your tickets?

You don't have to wait wait 2 hours. It says up to 2 hours, the same as purchasing paper tickets. They could, and usually are, available sooner.

AIUI, You nominate a station and collection date because there is a limited capacity as to what can be sent to each station. You can't collect from any station because the validators are not interrogating the National Reservations database, like the TVMs do for collecting paper tickets. I agree its not ideal and hopefully it will be an issue that is resolved as the system develops.

As for day tickets not being available, it makes sense to introduce different ticket types in stages. I'll agree it is confusing to have the tickets appear online and on TVMs until they are officially available.

 

[jon0844]

I 'purchased' a ticket from Hatfield to London and it said I needed to wait three days. It wasn't a Southern Daysave. It was a point to point ticket. (I didn't proceed to pay). It was on the Southern website, which does however have both Thameslink and Great Northern logos shown on the same page. Edit: I see what you mean, but why the heck is it talking about DaySave tickets when it must know I'm not buying one?!

On the TVM itself it offered no tickets for today or tomorrow, but DID offer for the third day. I bought one, added it to the card and it worked just fine, as I sort of hope might be the case on 30th September but guess won't be the case as the fares will likely be removed.

And as for normal tickets, I know it's up to two hours. Usually it's near instant, but I've had two instances where it isn't. One I had to wait a few minutes by the machine and keep trying, the second it didn't come through and I had to get a train - so I bought a new ticket.

I am not sure what point you're trying to make with the up to two hours bit? Yes, you can chance it. I do so regularly, but if you can't collect your ticket for whatever reason then you're stuffed. Who do you complain to because you bought the ticket on your phone just before walking up to the machine to earn some Nectar points?

(Yes, I should buy through Southern so it's easy to get my money back).

 

[Mike395]

Just purchased my first Key-based season ticket today and thought I'd post about a couple of teething issues...

Firstly, I must say the integrated Travelcard season is very useful and works well - only having to worry about one card to get into and around London is a huge improvement! (especially over having the equivalent paper ticket which goes through a barrier 12 times a day so understandably wears quite quickly!). Slight lag on LU barriers compared to Oyster - more comparable to a CPC in terms of time it needs holding to the reader, but a very minor point.

However - the implementation of the system at St Pancras and awareness within East Midlands Trains that they accept it needs improvement. The gates to the high level EMT platforms 1-4 do not read tickets on The Key, and the gateline staff this morning had no clue what it was but were sympathetic and let me out after a brief explanation. It also appears they do not have a handheld reader for them either. (As Stagecoach Smart is built on ITSO also, I would have thought it would be straightforward to accept tickets on The Key - but recognise these are likely teething issues).

I must say to their credit: EMT's Twitter staff got the message through to the St Pancras barriers as to their existence in time for the return journey this afternoon. Just been announced there'll be a full on-train inspection also so will report back on that! Have also spoken to Thameslink Customer Services with a view to getting the fares loaded onto the EMT gates sooner rather than later.

 

[jon0844]

At Hatfield, the ticket office has no equipment to read or write to The Key, so when I asked to add my railcard (as the TVM asks you to go) they said they can't and everything has to be done online.

Does this mean existing ticket holders can't switch their current season to the Key? If so, a lot of people won't be able to use it until January...

 

[mattdickinson]

At Hatfield, the ticket office has no equipment to read or write to The Key, so when I asked to add my railcard (as the TVM asks you to go) they said they can't and everything has to be done online.

Does this mean existing ticket holders can't switch their current season to the Key? If so, a lot of people won't be able to use it until January...

No ticket offices have any Key equipment. TVMs or online are the only methods for dealing with The Key.

 

[JaJaWa]

At Hatfield, the ticket office has no equipment to read or write to The Key, so when I asked to add my railcard (as the TVM asks you to go) they said they can't and everything has to be done online.

Does this mean existing ticket holders can't switch their current season to the Key? If so, a lot of people won't be able to use it until January...

So the TVM will sell you a paper ticket with a Railcard discount with no verification, but not a Key fare..?