What are the Thameslink London Terminals

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by KNG, 1 Nov 2011.

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  1. KNG

    KNG Member

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    Hi

    I am starting work at Gatwick airport and wanted to travel from St Pancras Station and get a London Terminals Ticket. I have tried to find a definitive list of what the London Terminals is and what stations they are. Can anyone help?

    Likewise, I would like to travel from St Pancras to Gatwick but also hear that you can include tube travel onto this ticket, is this possible?

    Also does London Terminals mean I can use the underground? On the website they give two standard choices for a monthly season pass. one is £218 and says "This ticket is only valid for routes not involving tube travel." The other more expensive option for £265 says, "This ticket allows travel on any permitted route." Although I went to St Pancras to buy this ticket and they say that I cannot use this ticket there... Confused! They say that I would need to go to Blackfriars to continue my journey to Gatwick.

    Also in the terms and conditions for season tickets it says,

    "Travelcard Season Tickets allow unlimited travel at any time of day on National Rail, London Underground, Docklands Light Railway, Croydon Tramlink within the London Fare Zones Area. Travelcard Season Tickets are also valid on most London Bus services throughout the London Bus network"
     
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  3. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    A ticket from London St Pancras to Gatwick Airport is not issued from London Terminals. Gatwick Airport is to the south of the city. You are not allowed to pass through Farringdon on a London Terminals ticket so the first point you can use this ticket from is City Thameslink (not Blackfriars as stated by the clerk at St Pancras).

    To travel from/to St Pancras, there is a ticket routed Not Underground between these two points which means that you can travel on the Thameslink route (even passing through Farringdon) between St Pancras and Gatwick Airport, but not on London Underground, and mirrors the cheaper £218.90 option. To travel on London Underground, your ticket will need to be issued from Zone U1 Londn, for which I don't believe a season ticket version exists.

    The £265 ticket is issued from London Terminals so I don't believe it is valid between St Pancras and Gatwick Airport.

    A monthly travelcard from Gatwick Airport to London Zones 1-6 costs £272.70 if routed FCC Only, or £294.60 if routed Southern Only, or £336.40 if routed Any Permitted.

    The list of stations that form the group called London Terminals for ticketing purposes is detailed here.
     
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Where is your commute starting from exactly?
     
  5. KNG

    KNG Member

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    Hi BB21

    Thanks for the quick response. I have just purchased a ticket from London Terminals to Gatwick as thought that there was one option for non tube travel then the other must include travel. Maybe I should refund this then.

    It would be great to understand what London Terminal means as this is really confusing me. I can't find any information on the Thameslink website and the restrictions on the tickets says,

    "Certain route restrictions are indicated on the 'route description' column on the previous page; however where there are none this may indicate detailed restrictions are applicable."

    This seems so unclear to me, there is no route description other than London Terminals to Gatwick via any permitted route.

    Another thing is what is "any permitted route"? I am soooo confused.. :(

    Also how do I get this magical season ticket which allows me on all the trains and underground, DLR as stated on the website and quoted in my previous post?:p
     
  6. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Permitted routes are defined by the National Routeing Guide.

    If you mean the travelcard, then it must be issued from Gatwick Airport. I believe that you could do a changeover, where you go to the station that you purchased your season from, and ask them to swap you for another season ticket for the remainder of the validity, paying/refunding any difference. There is no admin charge for this process.

    Alternatively you can refund the season ticket you bought in error, incurring an administration charge (no more than £10) and then buy the season ticket you desire. The travelcard can be issued by any National Rail ticket office.
     
  7. Caped Crusader

    Caped Crusader Member

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    PM sent.
     
  8. richardderby

    richardderby Member

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  9. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    London Terminals means different things from different places. From gatwick it would cover Victoria, Waterloo, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink and probably Charing Cross via Waterloo East, but not any of the stations on the North side of London, in particular not Farringdon or St Pancras.

    The FCC Only ticket would cover you for FCC trains to London Bridge and City TL, Southern only would cover Southern services to Victoria, the Any Permitted would cover both options so you could pick whichever one suits you on a given day.
     
  10. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I fear OP is a bit confused over something which need not be too complicated.

    Travelling between Gatwick Airport and London St Pancras, the options are as follows:

    Gatwick Airport - London St Pancras, Monthly £218.90
    This is valid on trains only between St Pancras and Gatwick. This means all the direct services; you'd also be allowed to change at e.g. London Bridge or East Croydon onto a Southern service. Tube travel is not included so you'd not be allowed to go to Victoria and take a train from there. (To do this, you'd need to buy a ticket from Victoria to East Croydon to be valid - your train needn't stop there however).

    London Terminals - Gatwick Airport, Monthly £265.00
    Not appropriate for your journey. Valid from Victoria, Waterloo (via CJ), Charing Cross, City Thameslink, Blackfriars & London Bridge via any permitted route to Gatwick.


    Gatwick Airport - London Zone 1-6, route Any Permitted, Monthly £336.40
    Valid on any train from London to Gatwick, and valid on all trains, tubes and DLR within Zones 1-6 and all buses and trams.

    Gatwick Airport - London Zone 1-6, route FCC Only, Monthly £272.70
    Valid only on First Capital Connect trains between Gatwick and Zone 6 (i.e. East Croydon), plus valid on all trains, tubes and DLR within Zones 1-6 and all buses and trams.

    Gatwick Airport - London Zone 1-6, route Southern Only, Monthly £294.60
    Valid only on Southern trains between Gatwick and Zone 6 (i.e. East Croydon), plus valid on all trains, tubes and DLR within Zones 1-6 and all buses and trams.


    --------

    If you're mostly wanting to travel between St P and Gatwick, I'd get the £218.90 ticket and use Oyster for occasional tube travel. If you'd like more flexibility, I'd recommend one of the travelcards - the Any Permitted is most flexible, but FCC Only should be fine for you, as all direct trains between St P and Gatwick are operated by FCC.
     
  11. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    [Pedant mode]
    London terminals from the south also includes Cannon Street, and Vauxhall (valid via Waterloo East and back out from Waterloo mainline).
    The first zonal station encountered on some trains from Gatwick Airport is actually Coulsdon South while others will stop at Purley, also in zone 6.
    [/Pedant mode]
     
  12. NightatLaira

    NightatLaira Member

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    I often have this debate with FCC staff, and you tend to get different answers depending on who you ask:

    the official line seems to be that on the Thameslink route: London Blackfriars, City Thameslink and St Pancras International are the terminals and Farringdon is not. However - you can normally persuade a Farringdon staff member to let you in / out if you ask politely. I believe that from December London Blackfriars will be known as 'Blackfriars' and will no longer be a terminal.

    You can also use a London Terminals ticket to get through a gate at ANY London Terminal (rightly or wrongly) - so that would include Kings Cross, Liv Street, Paddington, etc, etc. even if it's not a valid route by the routing guide - and I've tried this and it works.

    There are also a few other anomalies such as Vauxhall and Waterloo East which are not Terminals but seem to be treated as such.

    It's all very confusing..
     
  13. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    The official line is very simple - London Terminals are as described in this post linked by bb21 earlier - from the north, St Pancras is the relevant London Terminal, and from the south it's London Bridge/Blackfriars/City Thameslink. Travelling to or past Farringdon requires a ticket to the named station or to "London Thameslink".

    I think you've been lucky persuading Farringdon staff to let you through - there are (or were) posters stating categorically that "London Terminals" tickets are not valid there!

    Also, I seem to recall that the barriers at St Pancras Thameslink are programmed a bit differently and will not accept all London Terminals tickets... I might be wrong about this though. Certainly, gates at most London Terminals stations will accept a ticket from anywhere.

    Do you have a source for this? This could only make sense if City Thameslink also lost its London Terminal status. Would make sense in some ways, but it's the first I've heard of such changes.

    They are London Terminals for ticketing purposes (despite not being termini - same situation as for the Thameslink "Terminals").
     
  14. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Yes, please do quote a source for this. Bear in mind that this will mean that when the new bay platforms open and trains from the south terminate there again they will effectively be terminating at buffer stops in London which isn't a London terminal?
     
  15. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I have reservations about this claim too, especially considering how close City Thameslink and Blackfriars are.
     
  16. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Sometimes. Not always.

    We did have a report a year or two ago about a passenger from the south coast with a ticket to London Terminals who was threatened with a Penalty Fare for attempting to exit at St Pancras.

    We don't recommend tickets on the forum if their acceptance depends on inadequacies in the coding for ticket barriers. It leaves the passenger with few defences if someone fixes the coding.
     
  17. NightatLaira

    NightatLaira Member

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    I wouldn't recommend doing this either, but then, all I'm saying is that it 'works'.

    As for the Blackfriars renaming, I've tried to find the email - but I seem to have lost it. It was about 2 years ago that I received it so the plans may have been dropped. NR went through a phase iirc of considering new options for the station including:

    "London Blackfriars" [stay the same]
    "Blackfriars for the South Bank"
    "Blackfriars"

    Looks like that idea has been dropped now and that it's staying the same and keeping its terminal status.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    It's honestly not a problem, I work in Hatton Gardens and probably do this about 3 times a week to save walking down to City Thameslink when I'm running late and trying to catch the Catford train and no one bats an eyelid... maybe it's about *the way* you ask...
     
    Last edited: 3 Nov 2011
  18. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Changing the name wouldn't have affected its status as a London Terminal anyway. Yes, most London Terminal's names include the word London, but it isn't all of them - Vauxhall is the most obvious example.

    The name change proposals were being discussed earlier this year, NR's current position seems to be that a change is out of the question, but a 'suffix' would be OK, eg 'London Blackfriars (for South Bank)' or similar.

    They were doing a survey in the summer, it still works although the end date has passed, you'll see your options are there but only if externally funded:

    http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/news/news_items/view/103
     
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