What changes would you make for the tube

[Aictos]

I love it. I'd like to convert all London Metro services to through running, connecting with other Metro services on the other side of London. The only London commuter TOC that already has this, as far as I can see, is c2c, as the District Line/Hammersmith & City form the Metro run.
It'd cost an absolute fortune, but it would be amazing to see. It would stop a huge number of people changing at their main terminal and thus create more platform space at said termini. Brilliant.

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I love interchanges and would love to see the GOBLIN and the other NLL completely rebuilt. For instance, do we need stations at Hackney Wick, Hackney Downs, Hackney Central and Homerton? Or, for that matter, Harringay and Harringay Green Lanes? How about Tottenham Hale, South Tottenham and Seven Sisters? This is moronic. Again, it would cost a lot of money, but I feel that if proper interchanges along these lines were built, along with (at least) eight-car platforms and complete electrification, staff at every station, open ticket offices and barriers... the lines would be very busy and would save a lot of people the hassle of travelling via central London. This is the one LT idea that I am most passionate about. I long for the day...

I quite agree, it's daft that where Harringay Green Lanes is concerned for example that the Piccadilly Line runs directly beneath it and despite the distance between the two stations at either end of this section, Turnpike Lane and Manor House being particularly long for the line that there is no LUL interchange at that station.

Is it not possible for the the Harringay stations to close and have one combined station providing interchange options for the ECML, NLL and Piccadilly Line?

Or lets take West Hampstead as another example, why not just let's put Chiltern's idea into effect and have a combined station by moving the Thameslink and North London Line stations to the east side of West End Lane and also look at providing platforms for both the Chiltern line and the Metropolitan line and West End Lane would then become a tree-lined boulevard but there would be step free access to all platforms.

 

[Fred26]

West Hampstead is a real mess. How did I forget that?

 

[tbtc]

I love it. I'd like to convert all London Metro services to through running, connecting with other Metro services on the other side of London. The only London commuter TOC that already has this, as far as I can see, is c2c, as the District Line/Hammersmith & City form the Metro run.

I suppose the Metropolitan line acts like that for Chiltern too.

I love interchanges and would love to see the GOBLIN and the other NLL completely rebuilt. For instance, do we need stations at Hackney Wick, Hackney Downs, Hackney Central and Homerton? Or, for that matter, Harringay and Harringay Green Lanes? How about Tottenham Hale, South Tottenham and Seven Sisters? This is moronic. Again, it would cost a lot of money, but I feel that if proper interchanges along these lines were built, along with (at least) eight-car platforms and complete electrification, staff at every station, open ticket offices and barriers... the lines would be very busy and would save a lot of people the hassle of travelling via central London. This is the one LT idea that I am most passionate about. I long for the day...

Looking at how passenger numbers have improved with a better service on the East London Line and the "West London Line" (Clapham Junction - Willsden), by having new interchanges with other routes (Canada Water on the East London, Shepherd's Bush on the West London), it's hopefully encouraged TfL etc that building proper interchanges on GOBLIN (etc) will pay off.

Similarly, look at how people from Essex etc now change at Stratford and take the Jubilee to Docklands area (rather than going into central London and coming back out again). Hopefully the ELL extension to Clapham Junction will mean some people who currently get the train into Victoria/ Waterloo will change there for south London destinations on the ELL, rather than going into the centre...

On a "crazy" level, a proper London orbital railway including Heathrow/ Watford Junction/ Stratford/ East Croydon etc would be a brilliant way of keeping people out of the centre (but completely impractical, of course)
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I quite agree, it's daft that where Harringay Green Lanes is concerned for example that the Piccadilly Line runs directly beneath it and despite the distance between the two stations at either end of this section, Turnpike Lane and Manor House being particularly long for the line that there is no LUL interchange at that station.

Is it not possible for the the Harringay stations to close and have one combined station providing interchange options for the ECML, NLL and Piccadilly Line?

That sounds a bit like the Thameslink plan for an interchange with the Northern Line around Brent Cross (closing Cricklewood station?).

 

[colchesterken]

I do wish that when planning interchanges they could put the entrances where the platforms are closest together
some of the interchanges mean a long walk Angel for instance a rebuilt station means longer walks than when they had the lifts..for people who are not disabled but getting on ( like me bad back and Gout ) It can be off putting I find myself planning journies to avoid changes

 

[LE Greys]

On a "crazy" level, a proper London orbital railway including Heathrow/ Watford Junction/ Stratford/ East Croydon etc would be a brilliant way of keeping people out of the centre (but completely impractical, of course)

It's not impossible, but would take a lot of rebuilding. Stratford-Watford is easy, just use the NLL and the Primrose Hill connection to reach the Watford d.c. lines. Rebuild the Croxley Green branch to connect through to Rickmansworth. New line from there to Uxbridge. Rebuild the Vine Street branch to get to West Drayton, then reverse onto the Staines West branch with a new connection to Terminal 5 (part of Airtrack anyway). Not sure how to get to East Croydon, but heading east from there, the best route would be through Beckenham Junction to a new connection in Bromley (North-South). Gidea Park to Lewisham, then a new tunnel parallel with the DLR to Canary Wharf and then Stratford. The other option would be to run via Blackheath to Woolwich, then a new tunnel to North Woolwich and return that section of the DLR to heavy rail up to Stratford.

It would cost a fortune, but it is not impossible.

 

[jopsuk]

full orbital lines are prone to chaotic disruption, more so when they share track at all. Even on a system such as the Glasgow Subway, a minor disturbance can see the regular pattern disupted such that there are gaps with trains then queing up. It's part of why the Overground won't be running as an orbital even once the ELL goes to Clapham- running a seperate services minimises knockon disruption, especially key for services that have to negotiate the conjested lines south of the river.

 

[Waddon]

New Piccadilly Line city branch... splits off existing line at Earls Court, follows District line all stops to Victoria, then across the river (new station at Lambeth Palace), then Waterloo, takes over Waterloo and City line to Bank, New tunnel to Moorgate, takes over National Rail line all stops Moorgate to Finsbury Park, rejoins Piccadilly line at Finsbury Park...

Also I would build fast lines Kennington to Balham on the Northern Line, stopping only at Stockwell and Kennington then on into Zone 1. All trains from Morden would use the fast lines after Balham, whilst other services would start from Balham and stop at the Clapham stations and then all stops into central London. Instantly remove the congestion and capacity issues affecting Clapham and provide a faster service to passengers from Tooting etc...

Just give me a few Billion and we can start tomorrow...

 

[At_traction]

New Piccadilly Line city branch... splits off existing line at Earls Court, follows District line all stops to Victoria, then across the river (new station at Lambeth Palace), then Waterloo, takes over Waterloo and City line to Bank, New tunnel to Moorgate, takes over National Rail line all stops Moorgate to Finsbury Park, rejoins Piccadilly line at Finsbury Park...

A cheeky one this , and rather ingenious, but:

1) Why not remedy the ages old omission at the same time and reroute the line from Earls Court towards Chelsea, with stations possibly at Brompton Rd, Kings Road/Beaufort St. and then again halfway towards Sloane Sq.? The scheme involves, admittedly, sweeping curves, but I guess that Earls Court has to be retained within this line due to its interchanges. I know that no-one in Chelsea uses public transport or does their own groceries or walks their dog themselves, but still...

2) Here's again the same question: how is the dead-end alignment of the Waterloo & City at Bank (against Central Line, the Northern and the DLR on top of another when looked from the W&C) to be dealt with? Underneath the DLR (new platforms and much of the bore for the W&C, perhaps all the way from Thames) or rerouting around the station elevators and over the Northern and the DLR platforms (again new platforms and the end portion in new tunnels)? This all on top of possible reboring of the W&C to a larger diameter if it is needed.

 

[Waddon]

Here's again the same question: how is the dead-end alignment of the Waterloo & City at Bank (against Central Line, the Northern and the DLR on top of another when looked from the W&C) to be dealt with? Underneath the DLR (new platforms and much of the bore for the W&C, perhaps all the way from Thames) or rerouting around the station elevators and over the Northern and the DLR platforms (again new platforms and the end portion in new tunnels)? This all on top of possible reboring of the W&C to a larger diameter if it is needed.

I would imagine some new alignment would be needed... but anyway, it's not my job to plan these grand schemes (or pay for them) just to come up with them in my sleep-deprived brain!

 

[jon0844]

it's not my job to plan these grand schemes (or pay for them) just to come up with them in my sleep-deprived brain!

You have all the qualities to become a transport minister!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The passageways to the northern ticket hall at King's Cross need travolators in them...!!

 

[At_traction]

The passageways to the northern ticket hall at King's Cross need travolators in them...!!

What about Charing X, Bakerloo to Northern then... :roll:

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, that one as well, but you'd need to widen the passageway wouldn't you? I think it's only wide enough to get one in at the moment - you'd need one for each direction.

Well.... this is a "what would you do?" thread isn't it? So - yes, why not?

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, that one as well, but you'd need to widen the passageway wouldn't you? I think it's only wide enough to get one in at the moment - you'd need one for each direction.

Well.... this is a "what would you do?" thread isn't it? So - yes, why not?

You could have really thin ones with people standing sideways on them

 

[Tom B]

The passageways to the northern ticket hall at King's Cross need travolators in them...!!

King's Cross needs obliterating and starting again! Every time I pass through there they have a hair-brained scheme to wind you up - like walking half a mile out of your way to use the "new" ticket hall, then going down and walking half a mile back to your platform...

 

[Deerfold]

King's Cross needs obliterating and starting again! Every time I pass through there they have a hair-brained scheme to wind you up - like walking half a mile out of your way to use the "new" ticket hall, then going down and walking half a mile back to your platform...

At least the Northern line is signed from the old ticket hall again.

 

[At_traction]

Yes, that one as well, but you'd need to widen the passageway wouldn't you? I think it's only wide enough to get one in at the moment - you'd need one for each direction.

Well.... this is a "what would you do?" thread isn't it? So - yes, why not?

You could have really thin ones with people standing sideways on them

Rright... *clears throat & gets 0.5 pen & sketch paper out*

Here's a photo of the tunnel in question.

Judging by the quartz vinyl tiling on the floor, the width of the tunnel is now rather close to 2400 mm (8 tiles á 300 mm).

The first pic on the attachment shows this situation, with tile-covered side walls bordering the space.

Now let me introduce InnoTrack, the travelator with no trough needed for the mechanism, which presents the second scenario. Yes, there indeed is less space due to te heightened floor level to accommodate the width, but with the stand-on-right "rule", those wanting to pass will be the ones endangering their heads. Agreed, tough solutions required, but it's doable.

Never argue with an architect on these things...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=3925&stc=1&d=1296596692
http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=3926&stc=1&d=1296597026

 

[Mojo]

Afraid that moving walkway would not meet LU standards.

Also, I have to ask; why would you change between the Bakerloo and Northern lines at Charing Cross?

I would like to propose a cheap solution to a common problem; "no stopping" signs with a penalty for walking slowly or stopping.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You wouldn't, but you have to use the same passageway to get into one of them from the main line station ( although if it's not raining then Embankment is a shorter walk! )

And I love the typo in the caption to the picture of the passageway:

This long passageway was constricted to link the two

Never was a typo more appropriate considering the width of the passageway!

 

[At_traction]

Afraid that moving walkway would not meet LU standards.

Of course it doesn't. But the point was to comment that notwithstanding H&S (the real bottom-line here) whether there would be any space at all to even fit two normal, in-production travelators into the tunnel in the first place. And although with Kone's product, one even doesn't actually have to cheat on the mechanical fitting per se, for mechanical maintenance purposes the tunnel is definitely too small. Not to mention that whenever a travelator is used, it is usually fitted in a space large enough for wide bypassing, like used at airports.

But that's merely fine print. Where do I collect my prize?

Also, I have to ask; why would you change between the Bakerloo and Northern lines at Charing Cross?

I'm afraid you'd have to ask that from the now-TfL HQ. "Why did you silly sods connect the Northern line lower lift hall with the Bakerloo lower concourse. Expensive and useless." Or perhaps there was a reason after all.

I would like to propose a cheap solution to a common problem; "no stopping" signs with a penalty for walking slowly or stopping.

A barrier in-between "lanes" would do, to funnel, venturi-like the speed of travel , except for people choosing to walk to both directions in either of them, of course. Indeed, a thing to improve the Tube: people would collectively choose *right now* either left- or right-hand traffic to walk in all stairs and passageways, instead of the fascinating everyday free-for-all.

You wouldn't, but you have to use the same passageway to get into one of them from the main line station ( although if it's not raining then Embankment is a shorter walk! )

Which one of these Northern line stations actually does handle more of the NR interchange passengers. I assume that per turnstile count the Embankment gets totally muddled by the sub-surface services, but an inspired guess?

Never was a typo more appropriate considering the width of the passageway!

Perhaps they expected at the LT that no-one would actually use the Traf-Strand connection rather than the Embankment one...

 

[Mojo]

It was built because someone slapped the Jubilee line right between the two!

The LU standards are not just about safety requirements, but ensuring we have reliable and easy to maintain kit. You only have to look at Bank to see the trouble you get when you install commercial products in a Tube station.

Looking at the station layout right now it seems quite a straightforward walk between the two; it's just a long way!

There couldn't be a common keep left or keep right as some stations have different requirements (eg. Victoria Vic line - C&D ticket halls has to be keep right as the escalators are there, but the escalators run left so the interchange passage is keep left.)

 

[At_traction]

It was built because someone slapped the Jubilee line right between the two!

Of course they could have then used the Jubilee station's interconnecting tunnel for that purpose. (From Bakerloo: ) "Escalator down, mingle with the crowd, escalator up, right-left, Northern stop". Like a nursery rhyme. But much more breathtaking and crowded.

But AFAIK, the "bypass" interconnecting tunnel was constructed as a long-missing link between the Trafalgar and ole'-Strand stations "now that we're building down here anyway".

The LU standards are not just about safety requirements, but ensuring we have reliable and easy to maintain kit. You only have to look at Bank to see the trouble you get when you install commercial products in a Tube station.

Could you please elaborate on the Bank thing, what's the issue there? I've never heard of such a basic manufacturer's piece of equipment as lifts or esca/travelators being radically modified to suit a requirement in terms of mechanical characteristics. Usually the standard equipment is the way to go - or rather, in fitting into existent infrastructure, preferrably a type already redesigned and in production at least in reduced runs, with due price-escalating effects. I'm not certain what the conditions at the LU are that differ radically from other transport projects with new equipment.

 

[trainrider1985]

Make The Hammersmith and city a better service It is always get stuck outside Edgware Road for ages

 

[gordonthemoron]

have the tube run all night on friday and saturday, like the Berlin u-bahn

 

[Daniel]

Less work and more pay for train drivers!!!!


*ducks*

 

[Ivo]

Less work and more pay for train drivers!!!!


*ducks*

Ducking won't save you; Hendon Central will have to arrange for protection from the incoming Beeching-wannabes!

I would have to agree with Gordon, although the practicality of it may be somewhat marginal. Allowing for the decrease in availability for engineering works, would that then cause greater disruption at weekends, or (worse) a reduced service on Sundays?

Also, split the Northern. We've discussed this to death but it does need to be done to ensure the long-term viability of the line. And speaking of which, I wonder if there may be a case to split the District (specifically the Edgware Road route) as well? Revise the operations so that all Wimbledon services run on the south Circle (not easy allowing for signalling), and then run all Olympia services, under a Circle/H&C "sub-brand" (Spiral line perhaps? - yes, I know, that's been done to death as well), to Edgware Road.

 

[Daniel]

Ducking won't save you; Hendon Central will have to arrange for protection from the incoming Beeching-wannabes!

Bring it!


Y'know something which really needs to be looked at within LU? Staff morale. I don't think those in charge understand how bad things are out there. Get morale up, and sickness will go down, productivity will increase.

 

[Deerfold]

have the tube run all night on friday and saturday, like the Berlin u-bahn

It would be lovely but for every hour it runs later there needs to be another hour it doesn't run to allow for engineering work/safety checks.

Last time it was proposed to run an hour later it was found that more people used the tube to travel to work early Saturday and Sunday mornings than would use it late on Friday or Saturday (although they were only talking about making it an hour later which I think would be of limited use anyway - if you're not going home by 0030 (typical last tube from central London)you're probably not going home by 0130).

 

[Mojo]

Most pubs in central London seem to close earlier than in other major cities. The first and last time I went out in Leicester Square the Pret a Manger was open later than Wetherspoon! I presume this is partly because of concerns over noise and residential areas and partly commercial, because most people will probably either want to get the last Tubes home or move on to a late-night discotheque and stay there until gone 3am.

 

[SteamontheMet]

Bring Back Steam on the Met!!!!

Link the Metropolitan Line to Watford Junction (be planned and dropped)

Extend the Bakerloo line in the south eastern direction (im a bit OCD about having the Bakerloo line terminate at E&C)

Reopen the Charring Cross Branch of the Jubilee Line
Reopen the Aldwych Branch of the Piccy (possibly link the Jubee and Piccy together?)

Extend the Central line to Stansted Airport (Eastern End) and Harefield (Western).

Extend the Northern Line North to Elstree

Very true. On the Central between Northolt and South Ruislip there is a huge gap at least 4 minutes or so, that could do with a line increase, the 1992 Stock are amazing at braking so they would not struggle with braking into stations, There is quite a gap between Ruislip Gardens and West Ruislip. Also on the eastern side of things, there are huge gaps between Epping and Loughton and all the intermediate stations.

The central line in ATO will achieve 50mph in these sections however in Manual, drivers are asked to keep it to 50mph but the trains will do 60mph before the brakes will apply.
In bad weather the brakes on a 1992 stock trains are not always great, there have been a number of Under/Overruns especially on the West Ruislip branch and beyond Buckhurst Hill where there are long sections and various gradients, so sometimes the driver has to step in.
In the tunnels the brakes and acceleration is amazing on these trains