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What Changes Would You Make to the English Language?

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ABB125

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I think you might mean they'll sort it, no?
Don't blame me for slipping up like that, when we've all been subjected to such rubbish for years! :D
In my final year of high school, not all that many years ago, I was told by a professor of law that my manner as a (mock) barrister was too "old-fashioned"... and even I think this sounds stupid.
I actually agree with you, that that particular sentence is stupid; in fact, I tried to fill it with as much archaic phrasing as possible, just for fun! I don't actually speak like that in real life... (apart from when doing so will irritate the recipient of my vocabulary) :D
 
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oxfordray1

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Yet I doubt many in this country realise just how Germanic a language English really is. There are certainly times when English would benefit from a little more Teutonic precision as already illustrated a number of times upthread.
But only a German could be so discourteous to their verbs.
 

Calthrop

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The one for me that got me thinking about this is that I feel we really need to add a gender-neutral pronoun to supplement he/she (plus a form for him/her) for referring to a single human being without specifying gender. Though I have no idea what words should be used for that. Ideally something that is intuitive and has some existing connection with the language.
One agrees.

There's something which I would dearly like to see -- not so much a change; as educating out of stupidity. When it's wished to make a generalisation about how people behave: the language has a perfectly good word to express, in such circumstances, "a [generalised, any] person" -- i.e. (as per @Bald Rick, though context different): "one". Nowadays, though, it seems to be nearly universal for people to refuse to employ this form of expression -- using "one" in this sense, is felt to make the speaker / writer seem like a pompous / prissy / pedantic twit, and / or a member of the Royal Family. People therefore feel that for this purpose, they have to employ "you". Consequent potential ambiguity as to whether they mean literally "you", or whether it's the sense of "a person" -- it can at times truly be not completely obvious which is meant -- a pause needed, to work it out. If "one" were tolerated in this sense, the confusion-factor would be removed. (Quite often, in posting on message boards, people type "you" in this sense, and then find the need to follow the word, with "[general]" -- crazy, I feel, when we have "one" there, begging to be used.)

And perhaps a personal quirk of mine; but when listening to someone spouting generalities about what people do or think, and using "you" -- though "knowing with head" that they mean it in the general sense -- gut-feeling tends to make me quite cross: wanting to yell at the speaker, "don't you bloody pontificate to me about what I do or think -- you don't know nearly enough about me, for that !" If only people felt that they might use "one"; and used it: this "bother" would not arise.



The eighth letter of the English alphabet is also not pronounced 'haitch'.

I seem to recall reading somewhere, that with the way of things in Northern Ireland -- with its million different respective ways of setting about things, distinguishing Protestants and Catholics -- it's more or less standard there, for one bunch to say "aitch"; and the other, "haitch" (I don't know "which does which" here).



Separate words for the plural and singular forms of "you" and "your", and the inclusive and exclusive forms of "we" and "our"
We had them! They were simplified out of English, and are now just considered something to annoy English speakers trying to learn a foreign language...

@py_megapixel; and @duncombec, with your "we had them", as above -- I'm puzzling over this, a bit: clarification would be welcome. My understanding is that this refers to "myself, and you (one person or more) whom I am addressing"; versus "myself, and one or more persons who are other than you whom I am addressing" -- are we thinking of the same thing? If so: what English form to make this distinction did we once have, but have no longer?

A matter re this one, which has always tickled me: an instance of the way in which "pidgin" English of one kind or another, can sometimes be more precise and handier, than standard English. Pidgin as spoken in the South Pacific area, has the above distinction as regards "we" -- maybe similarly for "our"; the "we" usage anyway, is handled by "yumi" [you and me], and "mipela" [me and the other fellow].

ETA: taking thought -- the above-mentioned excellent communication-medium, makes much use of "bilong" = "belong", for anything in the "possessive" realm. "Our / ours" would presumably be "bilong yumi" and "bilong mipela", as appropriate.
 
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Ediswan

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Equally the US State Dept has a ranking of world languages in terms of their ease of learning for native English speakers:
I looked up that list. Maybe it helps to explain why my attempts to learn Japanese didn't get very far. Japanese is in their hardest category, the only one there with an asterisk to say it is especically difficult.
 

Calthrop

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"I couldn't care less" is one which those in the US say "I could care less"

My impression is, that the latter form is by no means universal in the US. I've seen discussions -- sometimes quite heated -- on US-based message boards; with American posters denouncing "I could care less", on the same basis as that for which we in Britain tend to dislike this form: as regards strict logic, it doesn't make sense -- whereas "I couldn't care less", does. Defenders of the "I could..." version usually concur about the logic thing; but they opine that context-wise, it's clear what the speaker is conveying -- and that language as used by humans, rather than Vulcans, is not particularly wedded to logic or quasi-mathematical accuracy: there's a lot of room for the colourful / imaginative / poetic.

I myself like the "I could care less" version -- find it to have a contemptuous "bite"; of which for me, the "couldn't" form, has less; though being British, and having used "couldn't care less" all my life, I'm not going to change my own usage now. Actually there's a rather convoluted, but in my view valid, argument: to the effect that the "could care less" version, can be seen to make a kind of sense -- but it just appeals to me, literal-sense-making or not.)
 
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prod_pep

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I seem to recall reading somewhere, that with the way of things in Northern Ireland -- with its million different respective ways of setting about things, distinguishing Protestants and Catholics -- it's more or less standard there, for one bunch to say "aitch"; and the other, "haitch" (I don't know "which does which" here).

Yes, that's something I too have heard. I think it is the Protestants (i.e. the Unionists) who favour the correct British pronunciation of 'aitch' for obvious reasons.

The 'haitch' pronunciation has been common in Liverpool for years due to the Irish influence here but has spread across Britain now. I think it is partly hypercorrection due to a perceived fear of h-dropping; indeed, occasionally people have told me my pronunciation is incorrect and were bemused to discover 'aitch' is actually the much older, and for me at least, only correct version.
 

GusB

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To open another can of worms, I'd abolish apostrophes for possessives. Before you object to that, saying it would make things more ambiguous, consider that:
a) it's so widely misused (especially for plurals) that you can't rely on it for anything,
b) there are no apostrophes in spoken English, and we manage to communicate well enough that way, using context or additional clues where necessary.

I wouldn't abolish the use of apostrophe's for possessive's - Id simply aboli'sh the people who abu'se them. :p

I've seen people use an apostrophe in words that end in "s", but aren't even plurals. It doe's my head in!
 

Mojo

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Treating 'they' only as plural would be my approach, but I wouldn't call it being a grammar pedant. If you use 'they' for the gender-neutral he/she, then you are creating an ambiguity over whether you're referring to one person or multiple people. Depending on how much the listener knows about the context, that might actually be confusing. That's why I would go for a new word - I don't think using 'they' is really good enough.
Has “he” always been solely considered as referring to men, rather than a neutral term referring to a generic, unknown person. I’m thinking with reference to old laws etc which only seem to use the term “he” or “him.” Indeed somewhat on topic for this forum the Railway Byelaws have numerous references to he / him, with the statement “Unless the context requires to the contrary, words importing one gender shall include the other gender.”

I’m also thinking of Spanish, where many words are either masculine or feminine, for example my (male) friends are amigos and my (female) friends are amigas. If however the group is mixed then you’d take the masculine. I know that there’s perhaps a feminist movement that seems to disagree with this, but it doesn’t seem to be as widespread and practiced as it does in English.
 

ABB125

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Has “he” always been solely considered as referring to men, rather than a neutral term referring to a generic, unknown person. I’m thinking with reference to old laws etc which only seem to use the term “he” or “him.” Indeed somewhat on topic for this forum the Railway Byelaws have numerous references to he / him, with the statement “Unless the context requires to the contrary, words importing one gender shall include the other gender.”

I’m also thinking of Spanish, where many words are either masculine or feminine, for example my (male) friends are amigos and my (female) friends are amigas. If however the group is mixed then you’d take the masculine. I know that there’s perhaps a feminist movement that seems to disagree with this, but it doesn’t seem to be as widespread and practiced as it does in English.
I suppose that's a bit like using "guys" when addressing a mixed group.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I've seen people use an apostrophe in words that end in "s", but aren't even plurals. It doe's my head in!

I suspect apostrophes are one thing where the language is fine as it is, but better education is required. I'm not sure why so many people get them wrong these days - I don't recall them being widely seen as a problem when I was growing up. Have standards in grammar teaching slipped or am I just remembering the past through rose tinted eyes?

I’m also thinking of Spanish, where many words are either masculine or feminine, for example my (male) friends are amigos and my (female) friends are amigas. If however the group is mixed then you’d take the masculine. I know that there’s perhaps a feminist movement that seems to disagree with this, but it doesn’t seem to be as widespread and practiced as it does in English.

Spanish isn't alone in that regard by quite a long way. Off the top of my head, I believe French and Hindi are both the same, and I'm sure there are many other languages like that. My impression is that amongst the vast family of Indo-European languages, English is quite unusual in having largely dropped the separate masculine/feminine (plus in some cases, neuter) forms.
 
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S&CLER

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Ask a German unfamiliar with Dutch what they think the latter sounds like and very probably they will use words equivalent to rough, uneducated or simple. In response a Dutchman would highlight the benefits of having much less complicated grammar and more flexibility in sentence construction. Then introduce them both to English and they'll probably say something like "wow, that's really pared down, but shame about the spelling, did you let the French mess you up?" Equally the US State Dept has a ranking of world languages in terms of their ease of learning for native English speakers: easiest of all is the grouping of Dutch, Flemish, Friesian/Frys and Afrikaans. Next, and by itself, is German. Yet I doubt many in this country realise just how Germanic a language English really is. There are certainly times when English would benefit from a little more Teutonic precision as already illustrated a number of times upthread.
The Dutch themselves feel that Afrikaans sounds archaic (e.g double negatives, which were a feature of 17th century Dutch) and rustic. When I lived in the Netherlands in the 1970s, Afrikaners on Dutch TV were always subtitled. But there were also adverts in the Dutch papers encouraging people to emigrate to South Africa, with the promise that "die taal is geen probleem" (the language is no problem).
 

biko

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As someone would learned English as a second language, there are some difficult things. One of the most irritating things is the fact that there are numerous possible pronunciations of the same spelling and also the other way around. This means you need to learn nearly every word and pronunciation individually. While learning French and German, I found pronunciation much easier as it is nearly standard given a spelling.

Another thing I would change is, as some others mentioned, introduce a distinction between the plural and singular forms of 'you'. It can be quite confusing at times especially if one is used to using this distinction (as I do as native Dutch speaker).

Not really something I would change, but I still find the tenses in English confusing, which might even have the ironic consequence this sentence is grammatically incorrect.

There are also lots of positive and easy aspects of English: nearly no conjugations, no cases (the reason I cannot speak German) and just one article.

Where English really falls short in personal pronouns is that there is no easy way of making things unambiguous in a sentence such as "He (A) told him (B) that he (who?) would have to go". Dutch can distinguish neatly in such cases.
As native Dutch speaker I don't really know how this would be more clear in Dutch. We sometimes use the word 'diens' to refer to a specific person, but that only works in very limited contexts.

Ask a German unfamiliar with Dutch what they think the latter sounds like and very probably they will use words equivalent to rough, uneducated or simple. In response a Dutchman would highlight the benefits of having much less complicated grammar and more flexibility in sentence construction. Then introduce them both to English and they'll probably say something like "wow, that's really pared down, but shame about the spelling, did you let the French mess you up?" Equally the US State Dept has a ranking of world languages in terms of their ease of learning for native English speakers: easiest of all is the grouping of Dutch, Flemish, Friesian/Frys and Afrikaans. Next, and by itself, is German. Yet I doubt many in this country realise just how Germanic a language English really is. There are certainly times when English would benefit from a little more Teutonic precision as already illustrated a number of times upthread.
Yes, I really enjoy the less complicated grammar of Dutch (no cases in regular sentences!) compared to German. Funnily enough, German sounds very rough to me, but I can understand a lot of it if people talk slowly. However, when needing to respond I cannot find the right words to it and cases make it impossible to compose a correct sentence in a second.

The Dutch themselves feel that Afrikaans sounds archaic (e.g double negatives, which were a feature of 17th century Dutch) and rustic. When I lived in the Netherlands in the 1970s, Afrikaners on Dutch TV were always subtitled. But there were also adverts in the Dutch papers encouraging people to emigrate to South Africa, with the promise that "die taal is geen probleem" (the language is no problem)
Afrikaans indeed sounds old-fashioned and funny. It has evolved differently from Dutch, hence the need for subtitles. Without subtitles, I would understand about 70-80% I guess. And subtitling someone is not the best measurement as many people with a strong accent are also subtitled.
 

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"I'm good" when you mean "I'm well"/ "I'm fine"
I've seen it suggested that the answer to that one is 'I'm asking about your health, not your morals'.

We had them! They were simplified out of English, and are now just considered something to annoy English speakers trying to learn a foreign language, Danish has also simplified them out, but in my experience there were plenty of older Danes who'd get quite offended if you spoke to them using the "impolite" form, even thought it was obvious I wasn't a native speaker.
In my opinion we're well rid of the formal/informal distinction for 'you', but the singular/plural one would be useful.

If only we had cases which could be used to distinguish this (unless we do already? If so, I was never taught them!). For example, the genetive(?) in German
I think the possessive apostrophe is how you form the genitive in English -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Possessive_apostrophe. Some pronouns also have cases, e.g. I/me/my.
 

TravelDream

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I suspect apostrophes are one thing where the language is fine as it is, but better education is required. I'm not sure why so many people get them wrong these days - I don't recall them being widely seen as a problem when I was growing up. Have standards in grammar teaching slipped or am I just remembering the past through rose tinted eyes?

I think the idea of a 'grocer's apostrophe' (maybe I should have written 'grocers apostrophe') has been around for yonks.
Stuff like '4 Orange's for a £1' or 'Somersets finest apple's' and the like.

To be honest, I can't remember ever really studying stuff like that in school. Obviously we must have done a bit in primary school, but nothing in secondary that I can recall.
I left with an A* in GCSE English language (which should put me in a certain age category), but without really knowing the difference between to an too, how to write a business-appropriate communication or how apostrophes are correctly used. I have some of my English schoolbooks, and some of the stuff is basically unintelligible.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Yes, I really enjoy the less complicated grammar of Dutch (no cases in regular sentences!) compared to German. Funnily enough, German sounds very rough to me, but I can understand a lot of it if people talk slowly. However, when needing to respond I cannot find the right words to it and cases make it impossible to compose a correct sentence in a second.

I suspect the complications of German grammar mean that even the Dutch need some formal lessons in German in order to speak it to a reasonable standard. On the other hand, as in many countries, most of the locals will be delighted that you take the trouble to speak to them in their own language and will make generous allowance for any shortcomings. I wish I could say the same for the Netherlands: there any attempt to speak Dutch with an obvious English accent is almost inevitably met by a response in fluent English!

I left with an A* in GCSE English language (which should put me in a certain age category), but without really knowing the difference between to an too, how to write a business-appropriate communication or how apostrophes are correctly used. I have some of my English schoolbooks, and some of the stuff is basically unintelligible.

Sadly there seemed to be a definite movement from the late 1960s onwards that suggested that the ability to express oneself was more important than grammatical accuracy and so the teaching of English Language became dumbed down. The consequences are now obvious when you consider how many people, not just the young, have difficulty in forming coherent sentences in everyday speech while also being a little wary of those whose English is more "complete".
 

Calthrop

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Has “he” always been solely considered as referring to men, rather than a neutral term referring to a generic, unknown person. I’m thinking with reference to old laws etc which only seem to use the term “he” or “him.” Indeed somewhat on topic for this forum the Railway Byelaws have numerous references to he / him, with the statement “Unless the context requires to the contrary, words importing one gender shall include the other gender."

(My bolding) -- as per my understanding, that has essentially been standard practice in English for hundreds of years: with references being to the male gender -- "man / men"; but with it being understood and agreed that when in context, women were being referred to also -- it's that way in the King James Bible, for instance. Those using the language thus would, I'm sure, mostly have said that their doing so was not out of misogyny or sexism; but just handling language succinctly, in a way which avoided getting tangled in convoluted "and / or" knots.


I suspect apostrophes are one thing where the language is fine as it is, but better education is required. I'm not sure why so many people get them wrong these days - I don't recall them being widely seen as a problem when I was growing up. Have standards in grammar teaching slipped or am I just remembering the past through rose tinted eyes?
Sadly there seemed to be a definite movement from the late 1960s onwards that suggested that the ability to express oneself was more important than grammatical accuracy and so the teaching of English Language became dumbed down. The consequences are now obvious when you consider how many people, not just the young, have difficulty in forming coherent sentences in everyday speech while also being a little wary of those whose English is more "complete".

I'd incline to the view re both the above-quoted passages; that these are not particularly phenomena of recent times owing to declining educational standards -- but have been around "from time immemorial". J.B. Morton, writing the "Beachcomber" humour column in the Daily Express approx. from 1925 to 1975, had endless gentle fun therein with people's apostrophe-botching. And it would appear to me that, probably ever since humans first set up civilisations, the articulate / educated / well-spoken have -- rather than being respected and admired by those who are less so -- been resented and despised by the "less-so"; and given a hard time by those folk, when opportunity allowed.

(Wretched quoting mechanism -- I have somehow messed things up so that the above two quotations are attributed to @Mojo; in fact, the upper one is by @DynamicSpirit; and the lower, by @Shaw S Hunter.)
 
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S&CLER

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As someone would learned English as a second language, there are some difficult things. One of the most irritating things is the fact that there are numerous possible pronunciations of the same spelling and also the other way around. This means you need to learn nearly every word and pronunciation individually. While learning French and German, I found pronunciation much easier as it is nearly standard given a spelling.

Another thing I would change is, as some others mentioned, introduce a distinction between the plural and singular forms of 'you'. It can be quite confusing at times especially if one is used to using this distinction (as I do as native Dutch speaker).

Not really something I would change, but I still find the tenses in English confusing, which might even have the ironic consequence this sentence is grammatically incorrect.

There are also lots of positive and easy aspects of English: nearly no conjugations, no cases (the reason I cannot speak German) and just one article.


As native Dutch speaker I don't really know how this would be more clear in Dutch. We sometimes use the word 'diens' to refer to a specific person, but that only works in very limited contexts.


Yes, I really enjoy the less complicated grammar of Dutch (no cases in regular sentences!) compared to German. Funnily enough, German sounds very rough to me, but I can understand a lot of it if people talk slowly. However, when needing to respond I cannot find the right words to it and cases make it impossible to compose a correct sentence in a second.


Afrikaans indeed sounds old-fashioned and funny. It has evolved differently from Dutch, hence the need for subtitles. Without subtitles, I would understand about 70-80% I guess. And subtitling someone is not the best measurement as many people with a strong accent are also subtitled.
It was the use of diens that I was thinking of, but the example was not a good one. I found in Germany that because of the similarity of the languages, Dutch words came unbidden to my tongue when I wanted a German one; if I wasn't careful I would be tempted to make up a German word on a Dutch model and say things like "entbeissen" for "frühstucken" (breakfast) or überschreiten for umsteigen (change trains). One peculiarity of Dutch that has cropped up in nearly all the books I've translated from it, has been the use of the same word "neef" for nephew and cousin. As for the English tenses, I always found that my Dutch friend, a retired professor of New Testament Greek at Leiden, got the perfect and the simple past mixed up and would write things like "Erasmus has died in 1536". When I was working for an academic publisher in Leiden, I once had to correct the English of a paper by a Leiden specialist in American history, J.W. Schulte Nordholt, and found it so flawless that I was relieved when I found a single mistake (hung for hanged), and felt that I could in good conscience ask for a fee after all.
 
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Calthrop

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Yes, that's something I too have heard. I think it is the Protestants (i.e. the Unionists) who favour the correct British pronunciation of 'aitch' for obvious reasons.

The 'haitch' pronunciation has been common in Liverpool for years due to the Irish influence here but has spread across Britain now. I think it is partly hypercorrection due to a perceived fear of h-dropping; indeed, occasionally people have told me my pronunciation is incorrect and were bemused to discover 'aitch' is actually the much older, and for me at least, only correct version.

(My bolding) Thanks. This would indeed make sense; but (I say this while having a great love of Northern Ireland) -- one can be excused for thinking that there are a good many things about that place, that don't obviously make sense !
 

westv

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I think it is partly hypercorrection due to a perceived fear of h-dropping; indeed, occasionally people have told me my pronunciation is incorrect and were bemused to discover 'aitch' is actually the much older, and for me at least, only correct version.
Yes, it is the correct version and it bugs me when I hear "haitch".
 

Mojo

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(My bolding) -- as per my understanding, that has essentially been standard practice in English for hundreds of years: with references being to the male gender -- "man / men"; but with it being understood and agreed that when in context, women were being referred to also -- it's that way in the King James Bible, for instance. Those using the language thus would, I'm sure, mostly have said that their doing so was not out of misogyny or sexism; but just handling language succinctly, in a way which avoided getting tangled in convoluted "and / or" knots.
That’s exactly my thoughts on the subject.
 

Calthrop

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I think it is partly hypercorrection due to a perceived fear of h-dropping; indeed, occasionally people have told me my pronunciation is incorrect and were bemused to discover 'aitch' is actually the much older, and for me at least, only correct version.
Yes, it is the correct version and it bugs me when I hear "haitch".

I once tried to lay out a breakdown of the spoken names of the letters of the alphabet. Concluded that only ten of them begin with or represent, beyond doubt, their only or chief "sound" or vocalisation. This does not apply to a majority, viz. sixteen: some of those starting with what is a secondary role for sound represented by the letter; some starting with a short "e" sound, followed by that characteristic of the letter (for example: f, l, m); and four whose relationship to the letter, is definitely not obvious -- "aitch" for h, being one of those four. This has me feeling that people's getting mixed-up now and then about the correct way to say letters' names; is understandable !
 
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