What constitutes a "system"?

[duncombec]

I started writing this in the private versus public ownership thread, but thought it was a bit too off-topic to continue there.

[...] But moving away from those silly cases (and big German cities do have maybe 10 bus routes penetrating the city centre connecting the closest non-rail suburbs, often to a central bus station like the Rathausmarkt in Hamburg's case) it absolutely makes sense not to be duplicating your high-capacity rapid transit rail system with a million buses.
[...]
It needs to be a transport system.

The need for "a system" is often mentioned, but what do people regard as being part of that? You are right in the number of bus routes that run into the very centre of Hamburg, but "Hamburg" is like Manchester, in that it has numerous suburbs, and the actual "true" city centre is very small - fairly easily walkable... and littered with "heavy rail" stations, in the form of underground (which may be overground) and S-Bahn (which may be underground) lines. If you head to Altona, for example, there is a great bus station in "true German" style, linking to those alternatives. There are then three S-Bahn trains an hour, via two different routes, linking you to the Hauptbahnhof.

What do you have in Oldham to get to Manchester? Two routes, theoretically every 12 minutes but not 6 minutes apart (judging from my trip last year), on a tram. If you've just missed the tram, you have 12 minutes in a potentially cold, windswept platform to wait, when you could be on the bus.

So, what constitutes a 'system' in the eyes of a disinterested user? Does it change for different users? We already have situations where people will shy away from a three-year-old, washed, clean bus "because it's a bus", but will then get in their five-year-old car (last washed who knows when), to drive to the station and get on a 15-year-old, graffiti-covered, dirt-encrusted train to go to work, "because it's a train".

Are trams really considered that much great than a bus in the eyes of Joe Public? Is it 'acceptable' to be made to change onto a tram, or only heavy rail to complete your journey? Do you withdraw all buses from a corridor if there is a tram system, or leave some? What if you get a "Croydon 130" situation? Is it 'acceptable' to change from one bus to another, similar to how I understand the Belfast Glider works?

 

[cnjb8]

I started writing this in the private versus public ownership thread, but thought it was a bit too off-topic to continue there.



The need for "a system" is often mentioned, but what do people regard as being part of that? You are right in the number of bus routes that run into the very centre of Hamburg, but "Hamburg" is like Manchester, in that it has numerous suburbs, and the actual "true" city centre is very small - fairly easily walkable... and littered with "heavy rail" stations, in the form of underground (which may be overground) and S-Bahn (which may be underground) lines. If you head to Altona, for example, there is a great bus station in "true German" style, linking to those alternatives. There are then three S-Bahn trains an hour, via two different routes, linking you to the Hauptbahnhof.

What do you have in Oldham to get to Manchester? Two routes, theoretically every 12 minutes but not 6 minutes apart (judging from my trip last year), on a tram. If you've just missed the tram, you have 12 minutes in a potentially cold, windswept platform to wait, when you could be on the bus.

So, what constitutes a 'system' in the eyes of a disinterested user? Does it change for different users? We already have situations where people will shy away from a three-year-old, washed, clean bus "because it's a bus", but will then get in their five-year-old car (last washed who knows when), to drive to the station and get on a 15-year-old, graffiti-covered, dirt-encrusted train to go to work, "because it's a train".

Are trams really considered that much great than a bus in the eyes of Joe Public? Is it 'acceptable' to be made to change onto a tram, or only heavy rail to complete your journey? Do you withdraw all buses from a corridor if there is a tram system, or leave some? What if you get a "Croydon 130" situation? Is it 'acceptable' to change from one bus to another, similar to how I understand the Belfast Glider works?

For me, a system is tram/train/bus etc working together under one brand like London and fares are interchangeable between different modes of transportation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to my posting there, my view is that all land-based public transport (plus ferries if applicable) are coordinated into one set of timetables with one set of fares and operate under one brand concept. (I accept why London has a lower bus only fare, however I do find it unacceptable that the Tube/rail fare does not also include bus connections at any point in the journey if they are appropriate, and I also accept the idea that we might consider the Thames Clippers to be "First Class only" like the Hamburg Schnellbusse). That is, any journey is a "public transport journey" not a "bus journey" or a "train journey".

Hamburg is a bit different from Manchester, most notably in its much more developed heavy rail infrastructure, which does mean Manchester would need more bus routes penetrating the city centre. Liverpool is a lot more similar having the "S-Bahn" but lacking the "U-Bahn" bit. But the concepts still work.

 

[PaulMc7]

For me, a system is a combination of transport modes working together to provide a stable and efficient network in a cost-effective manner at a price which is affordable for the general public. It's why I'm not big on comparing cities etc because I feel like the most effective systems would be very different so each city needs to find its own unique setup that works with the towns on the outskirts while enabling you to still connect with other cities across the country. I feel like you need to factor in population numbers, age, reasons for transport use etc to work out exactly what you need in order to even get the idea of a system off of the ground plus the obvious problems of congestion and encouraging car users onto public transport which also differ from city to city.