What current train services would look different if certain railways hadn’t been closed?

[yorksrob]

It would have been useful to retain the ex-GC section from Banbury via Woodford Halse and Rugby to just south of Countesthorpe, where it could have been diverted via the former Midland Railway Rugby-Leicester line to run into Leicester (London Road) station. This would have provided a direct connection from the East Midlands and points further north to Oxford/Reading/Hampshire, avoiding Birmingham.

Or just continue North via Mansfield to join the ECML at Tuxford.

Worth remembering that the route probably could have sustained a decent local traffic on the section between Rugby and Mansfield.

 

[leighsw2]

Ah, interesting. Looks like the Great Central really was doomed

The London Extension wasn't called 'Watkins Folly' for nothing!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

If the urban lines in Bristol had remained open, I reckon that they would have been converted into a light rail or heavy metro route by now. A new line from Brislington (on the GWR line to Radstock and Frome) could be built through the city centre to join up with the Avonmouth Branch at Clifton Down, with one route turning left towards Severn Beach, and another turning right to towards Montpelier, then taking over the Midland route to Mangotsfield (with possible future extension to Bath).

The contrast between Bristol and Cardiff is interesting. The former lost most of it local urban rail while Cardiff kept its network more or less intact due to the coal traffic. It even added a new passenger line, the City Line, in 1987.

However, the one line it did lose, the goods only Taff Vale Docks Extention Railway, would today provide a useful link across the affluent northern suburbs. Unfortunately much of the trackbed is now buried under the A48(M) and the A48 (Eastern Avenue).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There was no need for it when it was built, never mind when traffic started declining.

Possibly, but I’m still a massive GCR nerd through. I love the idea that a regional railway just said “to hell with it” and dug a main line to London.

 

[Zomboid]

Much of

Possibly, but I’m still a massive GCR nerd through. I love the idea that a regional railway just said “to hell with it” and dug a main line to London.

It is interesting for sure, and the fact that it was unnecessary is part of that.
A bit like the Milwaukee Road's Pacific extension, which is ultimately what killed it, the London extension didn't do the MSLR any good, really.

 

[yorksrob]

Much of

It is interesting for sure, and the fact that it was unnecessary is part of that.
A bit like the Milwaukee Road's Pacific extension, which is ultimately what killed it, the London extension didn't do the MSLR any good, really.

NE/SW connections via the East Midlands are a bit ropey, even to this day. I think when it was there, the route possibly wasn't used to it's potential in that respect (possibly due to differences between companies/regions).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Or just continue North via Mansfield to join the ECML at Tuxford.

Worth remembering that the route probably could have sustained a decent local traffic on the section between Rugby and Mansfield.

Well, seeing as Mansfield (Central) had closed as far back as January 1956 for regular services I’m not sure that there was much by way of ‘decent local traffic’ to sustain.

 

[WAO]

There was no need for it when it was built, never mind when traffic started declining.

And the malign effects on the Midland Railway's routes persist to this day. The more useful Midland link from Leicester to Rugby went before the GC route etc. The Woodhead route, necessary for coal movement nevertheless deflected investment in the Midland system, whose direct route to Manchester was lost and whose line to Leeds collapsed into coal workings. The S&K route was some compensation.

A pity that enthusiasts' pro-GCR clamour over the years was not directed at preserving and developing the Midland routes.

WAO

 

[Sad Sprinter]

And the malign effects on the Midland Railway's routes persist to this day. The more useful Midland link from Leicester to Rugby went before the GC route etc. The Woodhead route, necessary for coal movement nevertheless deflected investment in the Midland system, whose direct route to Manchester was lost and whose line to Leeds collapsed into coal workings. The S&K route was some compensation.

A pity that enthusiasts' pro-GCR clamour over the years was not directed at preserving and developing the Midland routes.

WAO

I mean yeah sure that's true, but the romantic narrative behind the Great Central Railway is more relatable to most people over the strategic unimportance of the line.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, seeing as Mansfield (Central) had closed as far back as January 1956 for regular services I’m not sure that there was much by way of ‘decent local traffic’ to sustain.

I'm presuming the other Mansfield survived longer, to be succeeded by "Mansfield Parkway", so the demand from the town has always been there. Perhaps there might have been an argument for concentrating services on Central as a main line hub.

And the malign effects on the Midland Railway's routes persist to this day. The more useful Midland link from Leicester to Rugby went before the GC route etc. The Woodhead route, necessary for coal movement nevertheless deflected investment in the Midland system, whose direct route to Manchester was lost and whose line to Leeds collapsed into coal workings. The S&K route was some compensation.

A pity that enthusiasts' pro-GCR clamour over the years was not directed at preserving and developing the Midland routes.

WAO

I'm not sure that the GC can be blamed for the loss of the main line through Bakewell or the mine workings under the Midland main line.

In fact Enthusiasts have tried substantially to rebuild the line through Bakewell (and continue to operate part of it).

The blame for any malign effects on the Midland system should be placed squarely on the Establishment (railway and political) at the time, and its obsession with the disastrous closure programme.

 

[WAO]

I mean yeah sure that's true, but the romantic narrative behind the Great Central Railway is more relatable to most people over the strategic unimportance of the line.

Absolutely.

I think that this infected Establishment thinking as well as that of enthusiasts, with ideas of Berne Gauge, the Channel Tunnel and through trains to Paris....and sowed doubts about the value of the Cinderella Midland lines which were anyway neither East nor West Coast.

That doesn't include present day enterprises such as the GCR heritage groups at Loughborough and Nottingham whose achievements are beyond praise, IMHO.

WAOI

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I do wonder also whether if Three Bridges to Tunbridge Wells had remained open, some of the North Downs services would have been extended to provide a link between TW, Gatwick and the West.

Then there's the Somerset and Dorset joint. With a few amendments at Templecombe, you could have had direct services between Bournemouth/Poole and the West country.

Direct trains from Charing Cross to Bexhill, splitting at Crowhurst.

Serious grade separation needed between Redhill and Gatwick. I rather fancy (and this is way into Crayonista territory) a light rail line serving Gatwick but going on to Crawley with street running in E Grinstead and Tunbridge Wells.

 

[yorksrob]

Serious grade separation needed between Redhill and Gatwick. I rather fancy (and this is way into Crayonista territory) a light rail line serving Gatwick but going on to Crawley with street running in E Grinstead and Tunbridge Wells.

Yes, it's a busy bit of track. Though if such a service had made it through, maybe they would have had to fit all the other services around them !