What do you think could or should happen to the Class 321 units?

[Bringback309s]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-321-withdrawals.212237/

Are there any rumours yet as to where the 321's could go next, particularly the Renatus units? The 720 rollout looks to be going quite well

 

[bramling]

Are there any rumours yet as to where the 321's could go next, particularly the Renatus units? The 720 rollout looks to be going quite well

I can't see most of them going anywhere, besides storage, scrap or perhaps some kind of conversion. There's already a surfeit of 319s, whose use elsewhere hasn't exactly been a resounding success, though the 321s do seem to be regarded as a better train.

I suspect it's not unlikely a small number of units will find their way to ScotRail, but beyond that the future looks bleak unless any electrification schemes get authorised pretty imminently. Even then there's plenty of newer units which could be used - 350/2, 365, 379, 458 to name but a few which spring to mind.

321s would have been okay for something like Cardiff valleys, but they've gone for something altogether different. Any further electrification around Liverpool or Manchester is likely to utilise new CAF or 323s.

 

[Clansman]

Personally, I'm surprised ScotRail hasn't looked to take on the "renatus" units and replace the 318 fleet - giving them one large common fleet (and potentially "renatus" the 320s).

What's to be surprised about? ScotRail's 318s have recently been heavily refurbished which should see them up until 2030 fairly comfortably.

It's definitely not in ScotRail's interest to take on the Renatus units. They're mechanically non standard due to its retractioning as well as it's , which is just an unnecessary hurdle when it comes to integrating them with the 320s and 318s given what ScotRail need is a tried and tested model of units coming in and do a job with the greatest efficiency and least cost possible to see out the decade.

It would cause more hassle than what it's worth, and there is little to no benefit whatsoever for anybody - unless you're a passenger who hates hopper windows and has an itching belief that removing hopper windows by default extends the life of any unit to warrant it replacing another fleet of the same age for the sake of it.

It would however be in their interests to take on more non-Renatus 321s for conversion to 320s.

I suspect it's not unlikely a small number of units will find their way to ScotRail

Nothing confirmed, but from a analytical or speculative point of view ScotRail seem an obvious one from the outset based on their rolling stock requirements post East Kilbride/Barrhead electrification which requires either the release of 380s/385s, or new build EMUs (East Kilbride and Barrhead demand is forcast to require 8 x 23m carriages in the peaks). Non Renatus 321s converting to 320s to release more 380s/385s from the runs they replaced the 314s from, isn't unrealistic or unlikely to enable the 385s/380s to shift to East Kilbride and Barrhead runs.

Can't see a future beyond ScotRail 320 conversions for them, at least not in passenger service.

 

[318259]

Yeah, I'd agree on that.

Everyone loves shiny new trains, but it makes sense to use the 380s and 385s on the fancier routes with longer journey times such as Edinburgh-Glasgow and Ayr-Glasgow.

The Glasgow suburban routes like the Argyle Line, North Clyde Line, Paisley Canal, East Kilbride and Cathcart Circle would be better served by tried-and-tested workhorses like the 318 and 320. They're a little more "metro style" in their layout and they can handle the constant start-stop really well.

If there's spare ones going, I'm sure we'd gladly take them.

 

[Class 170101]

Can't see a future beyond ScotRail 320 conversions for them, at least not in passenger service.

There is a pilot Class 321 at Widnes I think for Hydrogen conversion. If (and its a big one if the Class 769 conversion is anything to go by) the conversion to Hydrogen use would seesome stay around. However would they be hydrogen and 25KV ac Bi-modes?

 

[Kite159]

What's to be surprised about? ScotRail's 318s have recently been heavily refurbished which should see them up until 2030 fairly comfortably.

It's definitely not in ScotRail's interest to take on the Renatus units. They're mechanically non standard due to its retractioning as well as it's , which is just an unnecessary hurdle when it comes to integrating them with the 320s and 318s given what ScotRail need is a tried and tested model of units coming in and do a job with the greatest efficiency and least cost possible to see out the decade.

It would cause more hassle than what it's worth, and there is little to no benefit whatsoever for anybody - unless you're a passenger who hates hopper windows and has an itching belief that removing hopper windows by default extends the life of any unit to warrant it replacing another fleet of the same age for the sake of it.

It would however be in their interests to take on more non-Renatus 321s for conversion to 320s.


Nothing confirmed, but from a analytical or speculative point of view ScotRail seem an obvious one from the outset based on their rolling stock requirements post East Kilbride/Barrhead electrification which requires either the release of 380s/385s, or new build EMUs (East Kilbride and Barrhead demand is forcast to require 8 x 23m carriages in the peaks). Non Renatus 321s converting to 320s to release more 380s/385s from the runs they replaced the 314s from, isn't unrealistic or unlikely to enable the 385s/380s to shift to East Kilbride and Barrhead runs.

Can't see a future beyond ScotRail 320 conversions for them, at least not in passenger service.

I wonder if they will take on the former Northern units once they are released from GA as I guess they will require a bit less work due to already having megabogs/door buzzers fitted.

322s returning to Scotland for the 3rd time?

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a pilot Class 321 at Widnes I think for Hydrogen conversion. If (and its a big one if the Class 769 conversion is anything to go by) the conversion to Hydrogen use would seesome stay around. However would they be hydrogen and 25KV ac Bi-modes?

Not looking like bi-mode as it’s usually been referred to as a class 600. That’s a recently added TOPS class for “self powered” (ie diesel or other fuel) units.

 

[Mikey C]

Yeah, I'd agree on that.

Everyone loves shiny new trains, but it makes sense to use the 380s and 385s on the fancier routes with longer journey times such as Edinburgh-Glasgow and Ayr-Glasgow.

The Glasgow suburban routes like the Argyle Line, North Clyde Line, Paisley Canal, East Kilbride and Cathcart Circle would be better served by tried-and-tested workhorses like the 318 and 320. They're a little more "metro style" in their layout and they can handle the constant start-stop really well.

If there's spare ones going, I'm sure we'd gladly take them.

I suppose the downside of using the Mk3 EMUs on Metro routes is that they don't accelerate very quickly.

 

[D365]

This must be the first time in a long time that I've seen a "What should happen with Class xxx" discussion which won't require fanciful flights of imagination

 

[Energy]

Either hydrogen, maybe non-renatus units can go to Scotrail as 320s, otherwise scrap.

 

[gingertom]

What's to be surprised about? ScotRail's 318s have recently been heavily refurbished which should see them up until 2030 fairly comfortably.

It's definitely not in ScotRail's interest to take on the Renatus units. They're mechanically non standard due to its retractioning as well as it's , which is just an unnecessary hurdle when it comes to integrating them with the 320s and 318s given what ScotRail need is a tried and tested model of units coming in and do a job with the greatest efficiency and least cost possible to see out the decade.

It would cause more hassle than what it's worth, and there is little to no benefit whatsoever for anybody - unless you're a passenger who hates hopper windows and has an itching belief that removing hopper windows by default extends the life of any unit to warrant it replacing another fleet of the same age for the sake of it.

It would however be in their interests to take on more non-Renatus 321s for conversion to 320s.


Nothing confirmed, but from a analytical or speculative point of view ScotRail seem an obvious one from the outset based on their rolling stock requirements post East Kilbride/Barrhead electrification which requires either the release of 380s/385s, or new build EMUs (East Kilbride and Barrhead demand is forcast to require 8 x 23m carriages in the peaks). Non Renatus 321s converting to 320s to release more 380s/385s from the runs they replaced the 314s from, isn't unrealistic or unlikely to enable the 385s/380s to shift to East Kilbride and Barrhead runs.

Can't see a future beyond ScotRail 320 conversions for them, at least not in passenger service.

If Scotrail was to take on some Renatus units it would create a microfleet and all the ills that come with that. What does surprise me is the conversion to 320s- I'm sure there's a need for the capacity of the 4car 321 sets on certain routes but once again that would make for a microfleet so it is obvious SR has gone for uniform 3 car fleet.

 

[43096]

If Scotrail was to take on some Renatus units it would create a microfleet and all the ills that come with that. What does surprise me is the conversion to 320s- I'm sure there's a need for the capacity of the 4car 321 sets on certain routes but once again that would make for a microfleet so it is obvious SR has gone for uniform 3 car fleet.

4-cars are useless for the duties the existing 318s and 320s work as platform lengths are limited to 6 x 20m. Far better off with a 3-car fleet that can be multi'd up if needed.

 

[MatthewRead]

I hope they do have a future they're my favorite EMU's.

 

[waverley47]

4-cars are useless for the duties the existing 318s and 320s work as platform lengths are limited to 6 x 20m. Far better off with a 3-car fleet that can be multi'd up if needed.

Not exactly. The stuff to make the 321s into 320s included, but was not limited to, taking a compressor of the 'spare coach' and bolting it onto the underside of the pantograph coach. The rest of the stuff was rather superficial, not dissimilar to a midlife overhaul.

The only reading this work was undertaken was to make them three coaches long, so a uniform fleet length was achieved.

You could quite easily do all the other stuff, but leave them as four coaches. This wouldn't be uniform, but would give you about enough units for 8*23m trains to work East Kilbride. Granted, the diagrams would need redone as they currently interwork with the Kilmarnock and Barrhead trains, but not unachievable.

Yes, it would be easier from a timetabling perspective to have a uniform 6*23m length across the Strathclyde suburban routes, but orders from up on high seem to think that East Kilbride warrants the extra capacity (I cannot comment, as I've never been).

Wether this happens or not is simply if it's cheaper than buying a new fleet. ScotRail might already be looking at replacing the 318/320s in which case its razorblades, but if it's cheaper then we might see these kicking around Strathclyde for a while yet.

 

[DustyBin]

I had this thought when the Northern units were parked up at Heaton, but they’d be great to run on the ECML between say Berwick and Darlington. They would replace DMU’s north of Newcastle and take a bit of pressure off XC and TPE services.

We do seem to be getting incredibly wasteful when it comes to rolling stock, EMU’s especially. The 365s shouldn’t be parked up rotting away and the 321s aren’t life expired by any means.

 

[D365]

... and the 321s aren’t life expired by any means.

The Class 319s are a similar age and definitely need money to keep them going. Especially in 769 form.