What do you think might happen with rolling stock cascades on the Midland Main Line route?

[Stephen Lee]

1.Knowing that the Class 360/1 from GA will be deployed to London SP-Corby after electrification, I was wondering if the 360/1s will work in pairs?
2. When Kettering-Corby is electrified, the Class 222 will be replaced by Class 360/1s so I wondered if the 222s will then cascaded to other EMR-IC routes which they will replace the HSTs which will end up making no. of HSTs in EMR decrease.
3.Lastly I wondered what can 360/2 be used for once being replaced by Class 345s in TfL Rail, and if it is possible for EMR to inherit the 360/2s in case the London-Corby Route needs extra capacity.......

 

[Ethano92]

I don't know if the plan has changed but in response to the first question I believe the 360/1s are to operate as 12 car, half hourly to Corby (platforms at St.P can take 240m maximum). The plan I think has been to remove more stops before Leicester for longer distance services so the 12 car Corby's will pick up those passengers.

 

[D365]

1.Knowing that the Class 360/1 from GA will be deployed to London SP-Corby after electrification, I was wondering if the 360/1s will work in pairs?

Answered above.

2. When Kettering-Corby is electrified, the Class 222 will be replaced by Class 360/1s so I wondered if the 222s will then cascaded to other EMR-IC routes which they will replace the HSTs which will end up making no. of HSTs in EMR decrease.

A combination of the Class 180s from Hull Trains, along with the Class 222s released from Corby duties, are intended to allow the HSTs to be phased out this year. Although whether the Class 360s will make it in time is anyone’s guess.

3.Lastly I wondered what can 360/2 be used for once being replaced by Class 345s in TfL Rail, and if it is possible for EMR to inherit the 360/2s in case the London-Corby Route needs extra capacity.......

Bearing in mind that the Class 360/2s were purchased, and are owned, by Heathrow, there isn’t any way for EMR to “inherit” them. The future of those units depends entirely on whether Heathrow is willing to sell or lease them.

 

[43096]

3.Lastly I wondered what can 360/2 be used for once being replaced by Class 345s in TfL Rail, and if it is possible for EMR to inherit the 360/2s in case the London-Corby Route needs extra capacity.......

They’re not needed. The Corby service will be 30min interval, which needs 6 circuits. Three units maximum required per circuit, means 18 units are needed in service. With an allowance for maintenance cover the 21 Class 360/1 sets are the perfect fleet size.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Answered above.



A combination of the Class 180s from Hull Trains, along with the Class 222s released from Corby duties, are intended to allow the HSTs to be phased out this year. Although whether the Class 360s will make it in time is anyone’s guess.



Bearing in mind that the Class 360/2s were purchased, and are owned, by Heathrow, there isn’t any way for EMR to “inherit” them. The future of those units depends entirely on whether Heathrow is willing to sell or lease them.

Some of the HSTs may be phased out of service once Class 810s started service.

 

[hwl]

Some of the HSTs may be phased out of service once Class 810s started service.

The plan is that they will be long gone before the 810s even physically exist.

Ex Hull Trains 180s, Corby 360s and tighter diagramming will allow the HSTs to be retired well before the 810s arrival.

 

[Stephen Lee]

The plan is that they will be long gone before the 810s even physically exist.

Ex Hull Trains 180s, Corby 360s and tighter diagramming will allow the HSTs to be retired well before the 810s arrival.

So are the 180s staying even 810s start service?

 

[Domh245]

No, the 180s are a stopgap until the 810s arrive and will pretty much replace the short-set HSTs like for like by the end of the year. The 2+8 HSTs will first be exchanged for ex-LNER examples in the next few weeks/months before they are then replaced by 222s released from Corby electrification (and 360s) and tighter timetabling which should happen by the end of the year. That interim arrangement with the 222s and 180s continues until the 810s arrive.

 

[Stephen Lee]

No, the 180s are a stopgap until the 810s arrive and will pretty much replace the short-set HSTs like for like by the end of the year. The 2+8 HSTs will first be exchanged for ex-LNER examples in the next few weeks/months before they are then replaced by 222s released from Corby electrification (and 360s) and tighter timetabling which should happen by the end of the year. That interim arrangement with the 222s and 180s continues until the 810s arrive.

Oic BTW I wondered what can the 180s be transferred to after that.....

 

[hwl]

Oic BTW I wondered what can the 180s be transferred to after that.....

That is Angel's problem!

 

[Stephen Lee]

No, the 180s are a stopgap until the 810s arrive and will pretty much replace the short-set HSTs like for like by the end of the year. The 2+8 HSTs will first be exchanged for ex-LNER examples in the next few weeks/months before they are then replaced by 222s released from Corby electrification (and 360s) and tighter timetabling which should happen by the end of the year. That interim arrangement with the 222s and 180s continues until the 810s arrive.

I was wondering if the Ex Anglian Class 156s in the EMR Regional Fleet are also stop gaps as long as they will be replaced by 170s PS EMR now only have 3 153s in service......

 

[Domh245]

I was wondering if the Ex Anglian Class 156s in the EMR Regional Fleet are also stop gaps as long as they will be replaced by 170s PS EMR now only have 3 153s in service......

Correct. Eventual fleet plan for EMR is only 3 classes: 360s for the electrics services, 810s for intercity services, and 170s for regional services (assuming that they don't retain Nottingham - Liverpool and that they can get the 171s they've eyed up)

 

[Stephen Lee]

Correct. Eventual fleet plan for EMR is only 3 classes: 360s for the electrics services, 810s for intercity services, and 170s for regional services (assuming that they don't retain Nottingham - Liverpool and that they can get the 171s they've eyed up)

12 171s are due to transfer and convert to 170s

 

[Stephen Lee]

They’re not needed. The Corby service will be 30min interval, which needs 6 circuits. Three units maximum required per circuit, means 18 units are needed in service. With an allowance for maintenance cover the 21 Class 360/1 sets are the perfect fleet size.

How do you calculate this and BTW I wonder how many units are needed for the existing Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich service.....

 

[D365]

12 171s are due to transfer and convert to 170s

Subject to a suitable replacement being found for Southern.

 

[43096]

How do you calculate this and BTW I wonder how many units are needed for the existing Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich service.....

I used a timetable and looked at journey time from St. Pancras to Corby and back with layover at Corby, then pick up the next slot from St. Pancras. That tells you how many circuits are needed, in this case 6. If they are formed of 12 cars, you need 3 units per circuit = 18 units needed.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I used a timetable and looked at journey time from St. Pancras to Corby and back with layover at Corby, then pick up the next slot from St. Pancras. That tells you how many circuits are needed, in this case 6. If they are formed of 12 cars, you need 3 units per circuit = 18 units needed.

But if they pickup more stops from the longer intercity services, the journey time will be longer, resulting in either shorter turnarounds at Corby or more units needed

 

[rustbucket]

But if they pickup more stops from the longer intercity services, the journey time will be longer, resulting in either shorter turnarounds at Corby or more units needed

But helped by better acceleration i'm sure.....

 

[306024]

But if they pickup more stops from the longer intercity services, the journey time will be longer, resulting in either shorter turnarounds at Corby or more units needed

Indeed but the basic methodology is sound.

How do you calculate this and BTW I wonder how many units are needed for the existing Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich service.....

As you ask, although it is rather off topic. Using RealTimeTrains to work this out:

The 05.50 Norwich to Liverpool forms the 11.51 Liverpool to Norwich, forms the 17.52 Norwich to Nottingham. The service is hourly so you need 12 units before the first unit gets back to Norwich.

If every train is a 4 car between Nottingham and Liverpool, the 08.47 Nottingham to Liverpool (05.50 ex NRW) forms 11.51 Liverpool to Nottingham, forms 15.47 Nottingham to Liverpool (12.57 ex NRW). So that is 7 units before the first unit returns to Nottingham.

12+7=19 units. Of course that is very simplistic looking at that service in isolation.

Meanwhile back on the 360s having been involved in their introduction on the Great Eastern it’s good to see they are going to have a suitable future. Will be interesting to see how they are re-furbished.

 

[43096]

But if they pickup more stops from the longer intercity services, the journey time will be longer, resulting in either shorter turnarounds at Corby or more units needed

The current Corby services picks up most of the stops anyway, so there's almost no difference.

 

[Meerkat]

The wrong end of a 12 car 360 is going to be a route march from the underground at St Pancras, and a long queue to get through the barriers!

 

[Metal_gee_man]

The wrong end of a 12 car 360 is going to be a route march from the underground at St Pancras, and a long queue to get through the barriers!

You say that the longest walk at STP is from a 12 car SE service from p11, 12 or 13 to the Victoria line

 

[edwin_m]

You say that the longest walk at STP is from a 12 car SE service from p11, 12 or 13 to the Victoria line

I think the walk from the far end of the EMR platforms would be a bit further, at least following the official route via the Northern (underground) ticket hall. The far end of the SoutEastern platforms is a bit further north but from EMR you have to go further south to the down escalator and backtrack across the station just north of where the old train shed finishes. In the other direction it's even worse because the up escalator is even further south.

 

[JonathanH]

The wrong end of a 12 car 360 is going to be a route march from the underground at St Pancras, and a long queue to get through the barriers!

Not much different from being at the country end of a pair of 222s. Even on a five car service, you can sometimes be subject to double platforming at St Pancras.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I think the walk from the far end of the EMR platforms would be a bit further, at least following the official route via the Northern (underground) ticket hall. The far end of the SoutEastern platforms is a bit further north but from EMR you have to go further south to the down escalator and backtrack across the station just north of where the old train shed finishes. In the other direction it's even worse because the up escalator is even further south.

You'd be a fool not to use the Euston road ticket hall from the EMR platforms, we all know that never ending corridor from the Northern ticket hall to the VIC line is painful, I can't think of anything I hate more, I actively make connections onto other lines elsewhere to arrive at STP on the PICC or the Northern line.

 

[edwin_m]

You'd be a fool not to use the Euston road ticket hall from the EMR platforms, we all know that never ending corridor from the Northern ticket hall to the VIC line is painful, I can't think of anything I hate more, I actively make connections onto other lines elsewhere to arrive at STP on the PICC or the Northern line.

Southeastern to the Victoria line is probably quicker than EMR via the "Tube" ticket hall (under KX forecourt) too, as you can just walk along Pancras Road to one of the entrances outside KX. There are at least three routes from the EMR platforms to that that ticket hall but all of them are longer and most of them are more crowded therefore slower. The quickest, if steps are OK, is to stay at the high level and go through the big arch in the south-east corner.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Indeed but the basic methodology is sound.



As you ask, although it is rather off topic. Using RealTimeTrains to work this out:

The 05.50 Norwich to Liverpool forms the 11.51 Liverpool to Norwich, forms the 17.52 Norwich to Nottingham. The service is hourly so you need 12 units before the first unit gets back to Norwich.

If every train is a 4 car between Nottingham and Liverpool, the 08.47 Nottingham to Liverpool (05.50 ex NRW) forms 11.51 Liverpool to Nottingham, forms 15.47 Nottingham to Liverpool (12.57 ex NRW). So that is 7 units before the first unit returns to Nottingham.

12+7=19 units. Of course that is very simplistic looking at that service in isolation.

Meanwhile back on the 360s having been involved in their introduction on the Great Eastern it’s good to see they are going to have a suitable future. Will be interesting to see how they are re-furbished.

I have a feeling that the no. of units required for Nottingham-Liverpool and Nottingham-Norwich section will remain unchanged even the former section will be taken over by TPE but i wondered in the latter section will still be in 2 coach formation......

 

[edwin_m]

I have a feeling that the no. of units required for Nottingham-Liverpool and Nottingham-Norwich section will remain unchanged even the former section will be taken over by TPE but i wondered in the latter section will still be in 2 coach formation......

Nottingham to Liverpool may get away with the same number of units, as assuming the timetable stays the same the turnaround at Nottingham would be around 20min. The current strengthening unit spends 1hr 20min in Nottingham but without the coupling and uncoupling time, and assuming reasonable reliability is restored at Castlefield, 20min should be long enough. If the Nottingham-Norwich service was free-standing it would need more units, as the train to Norwich leaves Nottingham about the same time as the train from Norwich arrives so the turnaround time would have to be about an hour. However it is planned to be through-routed, probably for that very reason.

I'm assuming both halves of the service remain in roughly their current timings, as there are numerous constraints that make it difficult to change them.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Have no ideas why this guy think 360s should be stopgap for London SP-Corby

Abellio East Midlands Railway’s Plans For London And Corby

This page on the Department for Transport web site is an interactive map of the Abellio’s promises for East Midlands Railway. These are mentioned for Midland Main Line services to Corby. Dedi…

www.google.com.hk

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know. Corby is similar to Northampton in many ways, and 350/2s (which have near-identical interiors to 360s) serve that perfectly well. The 360s will stick around.