What exactly does 'London Terminals' mean?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by 4SRKT, 28 Apr 2011.

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  1. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    I have an advance ticket from Exmouth to London Terminals. Does this mean it is valid by non-LU services to terminals in London other than Waterloo? Specifically, can I use it to get to St Pancras by going Waterloo East > London Bridge > St Pancras?
     
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  3. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    London terminals means different things from different places. From Exmouth it will mean Paddington or Waterloo, plus Charing Cross, London Bridge, Cannon Street, Victoria, Blackfriars and City Thamslink. You cannot go through Farringdon on a London Terminals ticket, so St Pancras is ruled out.

    However, if you have an advance ticket it will be valid on the specified train to the specified terminal. If that is Waterloo then you can probably also change for Charing Cross, London Bridge, Cannon Street, but I'm not certain. Are you sure it says Advance and London Terminals? That seems to be an oxymoron.
     
  4. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    No that means you're crossing Farringdon. You can go to the South London terminals as far as City Thameslink. Beyond that you'll need destination to be 'U1'. The other ones you mentioned are fine.
     
  5. Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

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    Not permitted through Snow Hill Tunnel, so Waterloo is permitted obviously, also Charing Cross and London Bridge via Waterloo East but not St Pancras.
     
  6. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    The ticket itself does say London Terminals, the station in question is printed on the reservation ticket (Euston in my case). Of course since the reservation is still part of the ticket you [the OP] would have to go to the destination printed on your reservation coupon.
     
  7. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I agree. Depending on which company's product it is. If it's a First Great Western product then i would hazard a guess that your reservation coupon says Paddington, in which case there's nowhere else you can go. If it's a South West Trains product and you're reserved into Waterloo then I believe you can go as far as City Thameslink.
     
  8. allticketspls

    allticketspls Member

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    Below is the official answer from National Rail Enquiries:

    Tickets issued to London usually state 'London Terminals' as a destination on the ticket rather than naming the specific station. This is because the ticket is valid to any London termini, via any reasonable line of route, using National Rail services only and assuming that it is not a special fare restricted to a specific train company.

    For example, a ticket from Brighton to London Terminals is valid to Victoria, Waterloo (changing at Clapham Junction), London Bridge, Blackfriars and City Thameslink or Charing Cross Waterloo East or Cannon Street (changing at London Bridge). It would not be valid to, for example, London Euston or Paddington as this would not be on the line of route and would involve crossing London using another mode of transport.

    The list of main London termini stations, defined as 'London Terminals' for ticketing purposes are:

    Blackfriars - Serves stations on the Bedford to Brighton cross-London 'Thameslink' route and also commuter services to areas of south east London.

    Cannon Street - Serves stations throughout south east London and Kent, and from London Bridge there are direct services to Gatwick Airport, the Sussex coast and north to Bedford.

    Charing Cross - Serves stations throughout south east London and Kent, and from London Bridge there are direct services to Gatwick Airport, the Sussex coast and north to Bedford.

    Euston - Serves central and north-west England and western Scotland, including Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Chester, Glasgow, with rail and ferry services to/from both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Also provides regional services to Milton Keynes and Northampton and local services to Watford Junction. Euston is also the London terminus for sleeper services to/from Scotland.

    Fenchurch Street - Serves the commuter towns on the north side of the Thames Estuary including Southend. Tower Hill is the nearest Tube station.

    Kings Cross - Serves the north east and eastern Scotland including Doncaster, Hull, Leeds, York, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Aberdeen and Edinburgh. Also provides regional services to Cambridge, Hitchin, Kings Lynn, Peterborough and Stevenage and commuter and local services to stations north and north east of London.

    Liverpool Street - Serves stations throughout East Anglia, including Chelmsford, Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich, and is the London terminus for Stansted Express services from Stansted Airport. Also provides commuter and local services in east and north east London.

    London Bridge - Serves stations throughout south east London and Kent, and from London Bridge there are direct services to Gatwick Airport, the Sussex coast and north to Bedford.

    Marylebone - Serves central southern Midlands including High Wycombe, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Stratford-upon-Avon and Birmingham and provides commuter and local services to the north west of London including Amersham, Aylesbury.

    Moorgate - Provides commuter and local services in an area north and north east of London similar to that served by Kings Cross. The National Rail station is generally closed late evenings and most of the weekend although the London Underground line is still available.

    Paddington - Serves South Wales and the West Country, including Bath, Bristol, Cardiff, Exeter, Oxford, Plymouth, Swansea, and local services along the Thames Valley to Slough, Maidenhead and Reading. Paddington is also the London terminus for the Heathrow Express to Heathrow Airport and the sleeper service to/from Devon and Cornwall.

    St Pancras International - Serves the East Midlands including Derby, Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield, and is the terminus for high speed domestic services from Stratford Int'l, Ashford Int'l, Canterbury, Dover and Faversham. Services also operate to Gatwick Airport, Luton Airport, Bedford and Brighton. St Pancras International is the London terminus for Eurostar services to Brussels and Paris.

    Victoria - Serves south and south east coastal towns including Brighton, Dover, Eastbourne, Hastings and Margate, also Chatham and Canterbury. Victoria is the London terminus for Gatwick Express services to Gatwick Airport and provides local suburban services to south and south east London.

    Waterloo - Serves the south coast, including Bournemouth, Portsmouth, Southampton, Weymouth also Salisbury and Winchester, and provides local suburban services to south west London including Hampton Court, Richmond and Wimbledon.

    In addition, the following stations, whilst not technically a London terminus are considered to be 'London Terminals' for ticketing purposes:

    City Thameslink - Serves stations on the Bedford to Brighton cross-London 'Thameslink' route and also commuter services to areas of south east London.

    Old Street - Provides commuter and local services in an area north and north east of London similar to that served by Kings Cross. The National Rail station is generally closed late evenings and most of the weekend although the London Underground line is still available.

    Vauxhall - Serves local suburban services to south west London including Hampton Court, Richmond and Wimbledon.

    Waterloo East - Serves stations throughout south east London and Kent, and from London Bridge there are direct services to Gatwick Airport, the Sussex coast and north to Bedford.

    Please note that ‘London Terminals’ tickets do not permit travel between City Thameslink, Farringdon and St Pancras International on the First Capital Connect ‘Thameslink’ route. Such journeys will require a ticket either to the named station or to a destination of ‘London Thameslink’ or to 'Zone U1'.

    Hope this clarifies things.
     
  9. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    It's SWT and the reservation coupon says London Waterloo, but the ticket itself 'London terminals', which seems to imply other destinations than Waterloo itself. Still, I won't be able to avoid the tube fare if I can't go beyond City Thameslink, so it's somewhat academic anyway.

    Thanks folks.
     
  10. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    On a similar note (without wanting to take over the thread) if I buy a ticket from Basingstoke to London Bridge as opposed to London Terminals for example the fare exists and the ticket can be bought and is the same price as London Terminals but only Paddington and Waterloo are shown in the routing guide as permitted routes.

    I do understand though that from the south you cannot cross City Thames Link or Farringdon from the north, so what happens if the terminal you want to go to is permitted by the north south rule but not permitted by the routing guide?
     
  11. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Does the Snow Hill limit apply to Thameslink workings? Surely Farringdon and St Pancras are on the line of route for passengers from Brighton etc?
     
  12. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I did buy an advanced ticket from London to Exeter once with the reservation coupon from Waterloo and the ticket from London terminals. I travelled from Charing Cross and the guard didn't stop me travelling through the barrier.
     
  13. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Another related question. If I buy a ticket to 'London Terminals', and then break the journey at one terminal before travelling on to another, is this permitted? Specifically travelling from Strood to 'London Terminals', getting out at London Bridge, then going on later to Charing Cross.
     
  14. island

    island Established Member

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    The ticket will be swallowed by the barriers at London Bridge.
     
  15. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    I don't want it to be swallowed. I need it for making an expenses claim at work so I'd better show it to the bert and tell him I need to keep it.
     
  16. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    Yes if you have a travelcard - obviously.

    Yes if it's a valid route, hence my question if Charing Cross is not permitted by the routing guide are you still allowed to go there as it is south of Farringdon?
     
  17. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Well, equally obviously I won't have a Travelcard, or I wouldn't have asked the question.


    The question is now if I buy a single from Strood to London Terminals intending to go to Charing Cross (clearly a valid route), but want to break at London Bridge, is this allowed given that London Bridge is a 'London Terminal' and therefore the barrier may think it's the end of my intended journey and nick my ticket? To my mind there's no difference between going Strood > Charing Cross and breaking at London Bridge than there would be breaking at New Cross.
     
  18. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Indeed. If BOJ is allowed then it is allowed at London Bridge. It would be wise to show it to barrier staff rather than risk it being swallowed by the gates.
     
  19. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    I think this is another case of how are the barriers programed?

    For example when I use a Winchester to London Terminals ticket it is accepted at Waterloo East* but has been rejected at Charing Cross and London Bridge.

    *I mostly use the strange barrier at Waterloo East in order to exit the station to gain easy access to the other side of Waterloo Road. As there is no barrier to enter the station I rarely catch a train from there.
     
  20. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    But barriers accepting or rejecting tickets bears no relation whatsoever to whether the ticket is valid or not. Many barriers reject ALL child tickets!
     
  21. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    Indeed, If arriving into waterloo on a London Terminals ticket why would it be accepted at Waterloo East when the only two London Terminals you can go to are Charing Cross and London Bridge (or Cannon Street via London Bridge), in other words whether the ticket is accepted or not is down to the barriers and does not necessarily dictate it's validity.
     
  22. island

    island Established Member

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    Official guidance is that if you need a receipt for an expense claim you should ask for one when you buy the ticket. It will be automatically issued for a card transaction.

    (Not saying I endorse it, mind you.)
     
  23. Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

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    Many places don't accept receipts alone as they only shows the amount spent, not the product bought.
     
  24. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Can you give me a specific example, please?

    Tickets from Brighton to London St Pancras or Farringdon are issued route 'Not Underground' at the same price as Brighton - City Thameslink route Any Permitted. Tickets to London from stations Bedford to West Hampstead Thameslink inclusive are issued to London Thameslink and are valid to any station served by FCC Thameslink between St Pancras and Elephant & Castle or London Bridge.

    It is valid subject to two conditions. First, that there is a permitted route from the origin to the final London Terminals destination via the intermediate London Terminals destination. Second, that the ticket type permits break of journey.
     
  25. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    Are NRE saying London Overground are no longer part of 'National Rail services' ? That would contradict the latest published version of the NRCoC.
     
  26. allticketspls

    allticketspls Member

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    Passed through both Euston & Kings Cross LUL stations today. Both were displaying large posters proclaiming that tickets marked London Terminals were NOT valid on the London Underground and that new tickets were to be purchased for travel.
     
  27. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I don't know about NRE, but TfL certainly like to give the impression that Overground is not part of National Rail.

    However, in relation to this thread, I take it you're suggesting either Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction then Euston or New Cross Gate to Highbury & Islington then Moorgate? I think that the routeing guide rules these routes out by not including them on valid maps. Someone more expert than me might have a better explanation.
     
  28. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Although that's not quite correct in the case of someone wishing to travel from King's Cross to Moorgate on London Underground, in possession of a ticket that has validity between Finsbury Park and London Terminals.
     
  29. causton

    causton Established Member

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    I knew there was somewhere that wasn't right - thanks for pointing it out :D
     
  30. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    Yes it was Clapham-Willesden-Euston I was thinking off. Quite possibly this not a valid route but the quote from NRE suggested it was not valid because it involved another mode of transport.
     
  31. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Who will clarify what London Overground is? Is it a tube train? Is it London 'Underground' or is it part of the national rail network, given it's essentially an overland train - in some cases running on routes that certainly were ordinary railways.
     
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