What exactly does 'London Terminals' mean?

[Mojo]

The London Overground Customer Charter says

Conditions of Carriage
TfL Conditions of Carriage set out your rights and duties as a customer of TfL. Copies of this document can be obtained online at tfl.gov.uk

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage set out the legal contract you have with us when you purchase a ticket and travel with London Overground. A copy of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage can be obtained free of charge from any London Overground ticket office, from our Customer Services Team or online at www.nationalrail.co.uk

Railway Byelaws

Britain’s Railway Byelaws cover trains, tracks and stations across the country. To ensure ease of travel and safety on the railway system, including customers, staff, property and equipment, the Byelaws need to be observed by everyone.

The Byelaws prohibit smoking and the carriage of open alcohol containers on London Overground trains and stations. The Railway Byelaws can be found online at www.dft.gov.uk

So the byelaws are the same as National Rail, but both the TfL and the NR the Conditions of Carriage apply? Surely this is incorrect as both documents conflict each other.

Who will clarify what London Overground is? Is it a tube train? Is it London 'Underground' or is it part of the national rail network, given it's essentially an overland train - in some cases running on routes that certainly were ordinary railways.

As I understand it, LOROL is a Toc (but not one franchised by the DfT), which operates services under contract to Rail for London Limited.

 

[WillPS]

I thought LO was the TOC, wholly owned by TfL, but managed under contract by LOROL?

 

[34D]

Who will clarify what London Overground is? Is it a tube train? Is it London 'Underground' or is it part of the national rail network, given it's essentially an overland train - in some cases running on routes that certainly were ordinary railways.

It is part of national rail, any relevant rail only ticket is valid on it (example Brighton to Brum) but because of the TfL involvement certain journeys (and certain methods of payment) are cheaper than other heavy rail journeys.

I did wonder whether the New Cross Gate-Canonbury may be different, but I'm assured not, so something like Dartford-St Albans not underground (if there is such a ticket) would be valid either via City Thameslink or via Shoreditch.

When the routeing guide will be updated is another matter

 

[clagmonster]

Passed through both Euston & Kings Cross LUL stations today. Both were displaying large posters proclaiming that tickets marked London Terminals were NOT valid on the London Underground and that new tickets were to be purchased for travel.

I agree with the gist of the posters at Euston, although I would be interested to see their wording. However, at Kings Cross, the majority of BR tickets to London Terminals are valid on the Northern and the Met to Old Street and Moorgate (but not intermediately), see this post in another thread (See the bootom paragraph of Collybs' extract from the FRPP):
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=636458&postcount=6
I believe there is a full list of LT routes on which BR tickets are valid in the FRPP, but I do not have access to it. I believe that there are no routes involving Euston on it though.

 

[jon0844]

I (well the wife) have used London Terminals tickets to go from King's Cross to Old Street via the Northern Line. It is in fact the only way to get to Old Street or Moorgate after around 10pm in the week and weekends/bank holidays.

Never had any problems, yet. In fact, the only problem the wife has had at King's Cross was coming out of the tube in the northern ticket hall, going through the gate and being stopped by revenue officers wanting to check her ticket (in this case a paper Travelcard). The odd thing was the gate worked fine (no sound) and she was clearly not near anyone else - so hadn't doubled up. Very odd why she was stopped!

 

[34D]

I agree with the gist of the posters at Euston, although I would be interested to see their wording. However, at Kings Cross, the majority of BR tickets to London Terminals are valid on the Northern and the Met to Old Street and Moorgate (but not intermediately), see this post in another thread (See the bootom paragraph of Collybs' extract from the FRPP):
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=636458&postcount=6
I believe there is a full list of LT routes on which BR tickets are valid in the FRPP, but I do not have access to it. I believe that there are no routes involving Euston on it though.

Also at Kings Cross, one can travel to Finsbury Park (by either route).

When KXM (kings cross thameslink/midland city) was open, there were an awful lot of BR tickets that would let you through the tube gatelines.

 

[Mojo]

Never had any problems, yet. In fact, the only problem the wife has had at King's Cross was coming out of the tube in the northern ticket hall, going through the gate and being stopped by revenue officers wanting to check her ticket (in this case a paper Travelcard). The odd thing was the gate worked fine (no sound) and she was clearly not near anyone else - so hadn't doubled up. Very odd why she was stopped!

Ticket gates can be set up to display an orange light for certain types of tickets which revenue staff want to examine. I don't believe such a thing would be done for a day Travelcard though, so could just be for a random inspection.

This is quite out of date now, but I believe the section on Interavailability is still accurate:

http://www.pcc.me.uk/~peter/tfl/docs/topha3.pdf

 

[jon0844]

Cheers for that. Maybe they just wanted to chat to her.. she is Swedish and blonde!

The Orange LEDs will certainly light for child tickets, along with a warning sound, but I've not seen this even when you get 'seek assistance' situations where the gates open.

Do some gates show lights on the other side only, as to do it secretly for the benefit of revenue staff?

 

[causton]

Cheers for that. Maybe they just wanted to chat to her.. she is Swedish and blonde!

The Orange LEDs will certainly light for child tickets, along with a warning sound, but I've not seen this even when you get 'seek assistance' situations where the gates open.

Do some gates show lights on the other side only, as to do it secretly for the benefit of revenue staff?

Does the gate control box (the box at the side of the gateline with the ancient looking CRT screen, usually under a dark grey box panel) show details of the ticket going through it? It might have flashed up details which they might have considered worth a double check if so...

 

[jon0844]

There wouldn't have been any time for anyone to check that and pass the signal on to stop.

The station wasn't that busy. I went through one gate, she went through another further along. I'm fairly certain it was only us two that even came out at that time. The revenue officer who stopped approached her immediately and her flashed his ID (looking a bit like a police warrant card) and took a cursory glance and let her continue.

I really thought it was odd as you surely don't stop people who have successfully used a gate (and not on a child ticket) but I suppose he could be wanting to see if she had used a forged ticket or something (with a valid magstrip) but I doubt he could tell from such a quick look.

He was perfectly polite and she was held for a matter of seconds, so I'm merely intrigued - not angry.