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What factors have made on-train catering no longer viable in most cases?
- Thread starter Bletchleyite
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Then you'd presumably be furious at the vast number of Decorum Vending machines across the UK railway network which only accept contactless payments?
I was travelling to Birmingham recently and a train to Reading was cancelled, which resulted in a longer wait at Reading station for the next service towards Birmingham.
So I got a breakfast roll from a local cafe, once I found one that was open that early.
I didn't wait for the train itself as I didn't think they would have much on it. If they had a kitchen on the train, I would use it.
Some years ago Great Western Railway, or was it still First Great Western then, they used to make beacon rolls on the train. May even have included eggs. I would buy them every time I travelled.
Then they stopped. The new rolling stock has a trolly but it depends which of the 5 carriages it is in.
One time it went past without stopping and ended up at the back. I didn't say anything as I assumed it would come back but it didn't. I think it then went to the next 5 coaches.
I ended up getting food in Bath instead.
So I got a breakfast roll from a local cafe, once I found one that was open that early.
I didn't wait for the train itself as I didn't think they would have much on it. If they had a kitchen on the train, I would use it.
Some years ago Great Western Railway, or was it still First Great Western then, they used to make beacon rolls on the train. May even have included eggs. I would buy them every time I travelled.
Then they stopped. The new rolling stock has a trolly but it depends which of the 5 carriages it is in.
One time it went past without stopping and ended up at the back. I didn't say anything as I assumed it would come back but it didn't. I think it then went to the next 5 coaches.
I ended up getting food in Bath instead.
In some areas of Germany trains and trams have ticket machines on board which take coins, so no reason why a vending machine wouldn't work.
JLH4AC
Member
Japan has cash only vending machines on board some trains and they work perfectly fine, and vending machines on Trenitalia's intercity trains, and Amtrak's Peidmont train accept both cash and card with seemingly no problems.
May I suggest there are far more important things in life that deserve your fury than whether a vending machine takes cash or not.
Of course, contactless doesn't work so well on a line with lots of tunnels. Ok on Greater Anglia perhaps
They were very nice and well worth the money, proudly made from West Country bacon, raised near the line. They lasted onto the 800s, if you ordered one it would be brought to you hot from the kitchen. I don’t know why they stopped but I’ve not seen one in a few years.
On the general topic I travel a fair bit for work and the TfW 225 service is fantastic, as I can claim the breakfast or dinner on expenses and not have the hassle of finding (typically less good) food at either end. I do occasionally enjoy the GWR Pullman too but it’s priced itself above my expenses limit (and I’m less frequently on the Pullman routes). I think a push to longer trains could see a return to more consistent catering, the TfW 225s do a good trade (especially the evening train to Swansea) and that’s on a route that was previously a trolley on a 150 if you were lucky!
dk1
Veteran Member
Our traincrew messroom snack machines now accept both although I can’t remember the last time I saw anyone use coins for a purchase.
That said I’d much rather be served by a human on trains rather than a machine. Also for the 60 or so staff that are employed to serve onboard catering at my TOC alone.
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To be fair catering went cashless several years ago on my TOC and apart from an occasional "cash is king" wally who decides to have a rant no one is interested in listening to I'm not aware it's ever made much difference. The only result is they don't get the products they want and the host wanders off yawning. I certainly don't miss the host chasing me up the train minutes after departure trying to nick my float because they've had 3 people in a row with 20s for a coffee that's cleaned them out.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Not necessarily, some airlines have more cabin crew than legally required for the onboard service.
My last flight was a A319 and had 4 cabin crew instead of 3
Falcon1200
Established Member
BR did indeed try a vending machine on board a train - On the Cambrian Coast Express in the 1960s! As per this (locked) thread;
Vending Machines on Trains
The Cambrian Coast Express used to have a coach fitted with a vending machine that ran between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury and return in the early sixties. SK W25189 had one of the compartments adjacent to the centre door fitted with vending machines in early 1962. It appears to have been the...
www.railforums.co.uk
Presumably there were good reasons why this never (AFAIK) went beyond one coach?
I would have thought that towns whose stations do not have any form of food outlet nearby would probably not justify calls by trains justifying on-board catering anyway.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I think you’re in a minority there. I honestly can’t remember the last time I put actual money in a vending machine. Contactless payments don’t get jammed in the coin slot.
So would I to be honest.
As for the “espresso based drinks”, we have a benchtop bean-to-cup machine at work. It’s not much bigger than some of the flasks they use on the trolleys. Our machine uses powdered milk; worse than real milk but better than the little sachets of UHT “looks and tastes almost entirely nothing like milk” you get on trains or planes.
aaronspence
Member
Of course, contactless doesn't work so well on a line with lots of tunnels. Ok on Greater Anglia perhaps
Is this an issue either? They somehow get it to work on planes with airplane mode on / no wifi.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If that was Sleasy, it's because they have 7 more seats than 3 are allowed for. 4 are required for 150 or more, those aircraft have 156. It's why 149 is such a common capacity!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Factors: On train food it is often expensive, unavailable, tepid, limited choice and quite boring. You can get a nicer train picnic from a station M&S or Greggs.
The world has moved on. It isn't 1932. The only refreshments I have bought on board in the last few years have been hot drinks and a kit kat on long journeys.
That aside we all know what is meant here and it isn't worth becoming what @LowLevel calls "a cash is king wally"!
The world has moved on. It isn't 1932. The only refreshments I have bought on board in the last few years have been hot drinks and a kit kat on long journeys.
Clearly no one has picked up the point being made here so to ruin it I will explain that a vending machine is defined as a machine that dispenses small articles such as food, drinks, or cigarettes when a coin or token is inserted.
That aside we all know what is meant here and it isn't worth becoming what @LowLevel calls "a cash is king wally"!
cactustwirly
Established Member
It was BA, had 143 seats with only 1 emergency exit row so only 3 crew required
Must admit my train only takes cards and there’s always people at the buffet. The queue is usually five deep. Card only doesn’t seem to deter people. Nor does it seem to deter people when I fly BA or easyJet.
Card is more hygienic, there’s less chance of theft, there’s no faff with cashing up or dealing with paperwork or investigating discrepancies, you don’t have to haul a bag of money across a station alone to bank it, your post arrival duties are complete faster and it’s (usually) quicker per transaction.
I know people will go down the ‘but what about the elderly/disabled’ route but it takes much less mental capacity or physical dexterity to tap a card than it does to store and get out money, count the money, hand it over and then take back the change. In fact, with contactless on phones, it’s one less thing to have and to take care of.
Card is more hygienic, there’s less chance of theft, there’s no faff with cashing up or dealing with paperwork or investigating discrepancies, you don’t have to haul a bag of money across a station alone to bank it, your post arrival duties are complete faster and it’s (usually) quicker per transaction.
I know people will go down the ‘but what about the elderly/disabled’ route but it takes much less mental capacity or physical dexterity to tap a card than it does to store and get out money, count the money, hand it over and then take back the change. In fact, with contactless on phones, it’s one less thing to have and to take care of.
Consistency, cost and reliability.
The nationwide brands live and die on these three tenets of retail, especially food on the go. You know what you're going to get, the price you're going to pay, and the fact that 99.999% of the time you ask for it, you will get it (probably not an exaggeration). Thus, you can plan your journey with confidence. Because being thirsty or hungry on a long train journey sucks, especially if you're sitting there knowing you walked right past an outlet, with time on your hands and money in your pocket.
They are so good at it, their customers will even sometimes pay a premium, sometimes wait a little longer and even sometimes accept less choice, just for the convenience of being able to buy their products on the station estate itself. For obvious reasons of practicality, taste and even hygeine.
And it has specifically been the short term but pre-planned food on the go market that has been lost. The very people who could, would and most certainly should be spending their money on the train.
Diving into Greggs will never be any quicker than using on train catering. Upper Crust Euston certainly can't help you if the reason you're hungry or thirsty is if you were running late or you otherwise can't enjoy that which you brought with you to enjoy. Burger King isn't famed for its better than train staff levels of customer service. No outlet will ever have more choice than your own kitchen. But I dare say even a fair chunk of the packed lunch set has been lured by this triple benefit. Consistency, cost, reliability.
That's why the train operators can't compete, and in the long run, why the nationalised railway will make the clear eyed choice not to compete.
It's a shame, because there is a market opportunity out there, one that could perhaps sustain a basic latte/shortbread/pannini operation long term. Food on the go is in the main still very unhealthy, very bad for the environment and a poor fit for the nutritionally diverse. And its a perfect opportunity for the train, since it's one where price is less important than consistency and reliability, and the offering can actually be better than the (easily passed over for a later date) alternative the customer likely brought with them.
The nationwide brands live and die on these three tenets of retail, especially food on the go. You know what you're going to get, the price you're going to pay, and the fact that 99.999% of the time you ask for it, you will get it (probably not an exaggeration). Thus, you can plan your journey with confidence. Because being thirsty or hungry on a long train journey sucks, especially if you're sitting there knowing you walked right past an outlet, with time on your hands and money in your pocket.
They are so good at it, their customers will even sometimes pay a premium, sometimes wait a little longer and even sometimes accept less choice, just for the convenience of being able to buy their products on the station estate itself. For obvious reasons of practicality, taste and even hygeine.
And it has specifically been the short term but pre-planned food on the go market that has been lost. The very people who could, would and most certainly should be spending their money on the train.
Diving into Greggs will never be any quicker than using on train catering. Upper Crust Euston certainly can't help you if the reason you're hungry or thirsty is if you were running late or you otherwise can't enjoy that which you brought with you to enjoy. Burger King isn't famed for its better than train staff levels of customer service. No outlet will ever have more choice than your own kitchen. But I dare say even a fair chunk of the packed lunch set has been lured by this triple benefit. Consistency, cost, reliability.
That's why the train operators can't compete, and in the long run, why the nationalised railway will make the clear eyed choice not to compete.
It's a shame, because there is a market opportunity out there, one that could perhaps sustain a basic latte/shortbread/pannini operation long term. Food on the go is in the main still very unhealthy, very bad for the environment and a poor fit for the nutritionally diverse. And its a perfect opportunity for the train, since it's one where price is less important than consistency and reliability, and the offering can actually be better than the (easily passed over for a later date) alternative the customer likely brought with them.
BazingaTribe
Member
Yup. Between Destino and the really nice new pie shop at Basingstoke, the range of facilities both pre and post barrier at Reading and the range of vending machines, I'm generally able not only to eat before I go but also buy something substantial enough to eat hot as an evening meal that isn't Burger King as I travel home. (Nothing against BK, I eat it with reasonable frequency but sometimes you want -- or need -- something a bit better.)
With the turbulent XC timetable over the past week inconveniencing me both times I tried to travel, it got a bit more dicey. On Monday I ended up having to walk all the way into town to Blackwells to meet my aunt for coffee before I got something -- I'd left time at Basingstoke to have some lunch, but unfortunately the XC timetable didn't allow me to linger there.
I'm going to Exeter tomorrow and may have to stock up before I go to ensure I get at least something more substantial than a KitKat, but that and a decent meal the night before will help. The only worry is that my brand new copy of Paul Bradley's epic railway history will end up smeared in at least something, but that happens to most of my nonfiction books anyway because I prefer to read while eating and eat while reading. It's a habit I have struggled to kick but it's my version of hog heaven, so I'm not sure I'm even going to try any time soon.
However, maybe we might see the return of dwell times so people can buy stuff from stations. The xx52 XC services south from Reading wait there 10-15 minutes and often at platforms with handy coffee shops. I've never felt comfortable trying to get on and off when travelling between my cousin's in Oxford and Basingstoke, but it's been very satisfying to be able to hop on with something in hand and eat it before the train moves off and spillage becomes a big risk. (Or eat the pasty or whatever and then be able to drink the drink without worrying about it going everywhere when trying to handle food as well.) When the GWR shuttle services started resting at either end of the journey as well that also helped eat on the hoof.
With the turbulent XC timetable over the past week inconveniencing me both times I tried to travel, it got a bit more dicey. On Monday I ended up having to walk all the way into town to Blackwells to meet my aunt for coffee before I got something -- I'd left time at Basingstoke to have some lunch, but unfortunately the XC timetable didn't allow me to linger there.
I'm going to Exeter tomorrow and may have to stock up before I go to ensure I get at least something more substantial than a KitKat, but that and a decent meal the night before will help. The only worry is that my brand new copy of Paul Bradley's epic railway history will end up smeared in at least something, but that happens to most of my nonfiction books anyway because I prefer to read while eating and eat while reading. It's a habit I have struggled to kick but it's my version of hog heaven, so I'm not sure I'm even going to try any time soon.
However, maybe we might see the return of dwell times so people can buy stuff from stations. The xx52 XC services south from Reading wait there 10-15 minutes and often at platforms with handy coffee shops. I've never felt comfortable trying to get on and off when travelling between my cousin's in Oxford and Basingstoke, but it's been very satisfying to be able to hop on with something in hand and eat it before the train moves off and spillage becomes a big risk. (Or eat the pasty or whatever and then be able to drink the drink without worrying about it going everywhere when trying to handle food as well.) When the GWR shuttle services started resting at either end of the journey as well that also helped eat on the hoof.
It should work as it's to do with RFID rather than WiFi, even on phones.
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Of course, contactless doesn't work so well on a line with lots of tunnels. Ok on Greater Anglia perhaps
Most payments, including contactless, are "online" authorised, meaning that they contact the bank to confirm the payment at the time of presenting your card.
Airlines (typically) work around this by doing offline authorisation, where the money is not debited immediately but the machine stores some authorising token generated by the card alone to then confirm the transaction at a later date when connectivity is restored or available (e.g., when the machines go back to the catering company overnight). This is why you'll see the card transaction appear on your banking app the next day.
Offline auth does carry more risk, as the bank could refuse the transaction after the fact if you, for example, don't have sufficient funds. There are ways that a card network could potentially "force" the payment through anyway, I think, despite funds not being available. At least I had that once many, many years ago on my child current account which obviously had no overdraft.
BazingaTribe
Member
Yeah, my mum and dad live in an area of incredibly poor mobile signal south of M4 Junction 11 Inside the house I can make calls through the WiFi network, but outside waiting for Reading Buses to take me into Reading, I can't often get a signal to buy or activate a mobile ticket. So I use a contactless card to board the bus when it arrives, which generally works. It's getting incrementally better every time I go there, but it's still terrible.
If you look at an online banking account though you'll see most transactions actually take time to go through regardless of payment method (other than direct transfers). The balance displayed is calculated after any outstanding payments will be actually taken, but it will often show stuff that's still pending.
This can work in people's favour at the point where pennies matter. In ye olde ancient days of 2000 or thereabouts at the start of one university term I was too broke to get cash out but the ticket machine took my debit card. Likewise, I had a very close shave in a restaurant once (I'd describe myself as 'genteel poor' or 'too posh to wash', but I'm the child of fairly wealthy parents who reached the top of their careers so I wasn't, like, homeless or anything, just had very little to no disposable income while on incapacity benefits because said parents wanted to make sure I was looking to get myself re-established rather than just float by dependant on them. Then I ended up with an embarrassment of riches after my husband's death and his canny property deal and two life insurance policies paid out; I'm still a couple of pay rises/promotions away from breaking even on my monthly expenses but I'm not in danger of anything worse. Working is also so so much fun and fulfilling but I was able to take the scenic route due to my disabilities rather than have to hustle every inch of the way).
So payment can go through, but it may not be reconciled immediately with the bank. For what it's worth, in terms of transport costs, one kind Reading Buses guy did give me a free ticket to the edge of their zone so I could walk back to my parents' house from there (while I still lived with them). I think there's probably more danger in the card machine not having much reception than the RFID side not working.
If you look at an online banking account though you'll see most transactions actually take time to go through regardless of payment method (other than direct transfers). The balance displayed is calculated after any outstanding payments will be actually taken, but it will often show stuff that's still pending.
This can work in people's favour at the point where pennies matter. In ye olde ancient days of 2000 or thereabouts at the start of one university term I was too broke to get cash out but the ticket machine took my debit card. Likewise, I had a very close shave in a restaurant once (I'd describe myself as 'genteel poor' or 'too posh to wash', but I'm the child of fairly wealthy parents who reached the top of their careers so I wasn't, like, homeless or anything, just had very little to no disposable income while on incapacity benefits because said parents wanted to make sure I was looking to get myself re-established rather than just float by dependant on them. Then I ended up with an embarrassment of riches after my husband's death and his canny property deal and two life insurance policies paid out; I'm still a couple of pay rises/promotions away from breaking even on my monthly expenses but I'm not in danger of anything worse. Working is also so so much fun and fulfilling but I was able to take the scenic route due to my disabilities rather than have to hustle every inch of the way).
So payment can go through, but it may not be reconciled immediately with the bank. For what it's worth, in terms of transport costs, one kind Reading Buses guy did give me a free ticket to the edge of their zone so I could walk back to my parents' house from there (while I still lived with them). I think there's probably more danger in the card machine not having much reception than the RFID side not working.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's because authorisation is separate from actually taking the payment. That's true of all card use where an authorisation is carried out. The money is never taken immediately. Some banks (e.g. Monzo) make it look like it has been, but it in fact hasn't - that's just an illusion to make budgeting easier.
BazingaTribe
Member
Good to know
. Thanks.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
It’s noticeable at my TOC that takings on the buffet trolley have dropped when compared to that taken on a HST buffet. Possible reasons are that when you want something the trolley is often half an hour away from you,card only and limited choice. I’m not opening the fixed buffet/trolley debate as threads exist for that but catering is viable if done properly and not because we have to ie cheaply.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
In the USA it is very common practice to take a hot drink on the plane - nearly always Starbucks from what I have seen.
Spaceship323
Member
I Don't know if it was just an excuse not to serve any hot drinks or really true but a CrossCountry trolley operator told me they couldn't sell me a coffee as GWR at Cardiff wouldn't let them fill up with hot water from their kettle!
BazingaTribe
Member
Sounds like the row in NHS property management (just as fragmented as TOC territory because our org leases space to both public sector and private clinical providers) where we as landlords had to adjudicate between tenants squabbling over the use of a kitchen and someone put a sticker on their kettle ...that turned out not to be theirs. There's an episode of Drop The Dead Donkey where people are arguing over who has bought which kind of coffee and biscuit. I'd hope GWR could spare someone a pot of hot water but I'd also hope XC could find a way of providing it at what must be a big regional hub!
The issue is generally because organisations that pay for facilities tend to be rather territorial. A while back before I got promoted my org took out all the mains water coolers and told people to use water jugs for hygiene purposes (after the pandemic meant water had the propensity to sit around for longer than it otherwise would have done, which is a legitimate health risk). I can see such a situation arising in that building if the policy had extended to hot water urns as well -- but thankfully no sane landlord would come between tenants and their hot drinks!
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Oh good lord -crazy.