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What happens if lamp proving shows a signal lamp isn't working?

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robintw

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I know that signalling systems have ways of determining whether a signal lamp is working or not - things like lamp proving relays, or equivalent electronics for LED signals. What happens if one of these systems shows that a lamp has failed in a signal?

Does it set the previous signal to the aspect that would have been set in the failed signal? Does it give some sort of alert to the signaller (presumably differently depending whether the signalling is through a manual box, a panel or a VDU)? Or can a panel/VDU actually stop routes being set that involve that signal?

What would the procedure be for dealing with this? Obviously S&T would be asked to fix it, but in the meantime, would that signal be 'switched out' as it were? Or would you have to stop everything in the area until it was fixed?

Thanks!

Robin
 
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samulih

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Signalling systems are designed so that, if something stops working, such as a signal or a set of points, trains will stop before they reach that location. So, if there’s a power failure, the signal goes black and the driver knows not to pass a signal unless it has a green or yellow light. If a set of points should fail, the last signal before it will automatically turn red so no trains can pass. On some of the busiest lines on the GB mainline network, over 100 trains will pass over just one set of points every day, so they must be made as reliable as possible.
 

edwin_m

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Loss of lamp proving causes the previous stop signal to remain at red, so drivers would have to call in and receive permission to pass both signals. Not sure if this requires a call at each signal or whether the driver can be instructed to pass both in the same call. To complicate things, if the signal with the fault changes to a different aspect with a good lamp, all will appear to work normally until the bad aspect is to be displayed again.

Note however that classic signal lamps have two filaments. If the first filament fails they automatically switch over to the other one. This doesn't affect the operation of the signalling at all, except that the second filament is slightly off the focal point of the lens so looks a little less bright. Filament failure does however alert the technician, who can hopefully send someone out to change the lamp before it fails completely. I believe some of the newer LED signals also use the filament failure circuit to flag up if the LEDs are degraded close to the minimum acceptable levels.
 
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Edwin_m is completely correct, but to expand on how they are dealt with -
In short, it depends on which aspect is broken and how easy it is to fix.

In many cases a signaller can manipulate the sequences to mean a signal does not need to show the ‘bad’ aspect at the wrong time.

When whatever aspect is unproven is shown by the suspect signal, the previous signal immediately reverts to danger.
So - if red is broken, make sure it’s not red before the train gets to the previous signal, by clearing it if possible.
If green is broken, hold the signal at yellow or double yellow if possible.

You can imagine that there are situations where working round the problem is simple, and others where it’s impossible.

Signaller workload, train running and S&T availability all factor in to getting fixed and back to normal working
 

skyhigh

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Not sure if this requires a call at each signal or whether the driver can be instructed to pass both in the same call.
A driver can be authorised to pass two consecutive signals at danger on a single call as long as they are required to pass both signals for the same reason, they are consecutive stop signals (i.e. no distants in between) and TPWS is not fitted to the second signal.
 

ComUtoR

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A driver can be authorised to pass two consecutive signals at danger on a single call as long as they are required to pass both signals for the same reason, they are consecutive stop signals (i.e. no distants in between) and TPWS is not fitted to the second signal.

Could you throw me a source for that please. This has always been contentious at my TOC and that we have always said its just one signal at a time. Two consecutive used to require Temp Block but has now been replaced with Emergency Special working. I'd certainly love to see evidence which stated we could have always passed two in a single call.

Cheers in advance.
 

MarkyT

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Just as an aside, correct working of the TPWS equipment at the next signal (where fitted) is also proven, often using the same circuit as the lamp proving where TPWS was retrofitted to pre-existing signalling. More modern systems input each function separately for better diagnostics.
 

Dunnideer

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A driver can be authorised to pass two consecutive signals at danger on a single call as long as they are required to pass both signals for the same reason, they are consecutive stop signals (i.e. no distants in between) and TPWS is not fitted to the second signal.
It also needs to be a TCB line.

Could you throw me a source for that please. This has always been contentious at my TOC and that we have always said its just one signal at a time. Two consecutive used to require Temp Block but has now been replaced with Emergency Special working. I'd certainly love to see evidence which stated we could have always passed two in a single call.
It shouldn’t be contentious really. It was introduced in module S5 issue 9 in September 2020. Here are screenshots of the rules in the current issue 10:

FB8B6247-EEF2-4508-B4AB-A51ACD2F8B52.jpeg6AA3E09E-FB67-408D-8917-155970DE169B.jpegE7EEA590-CD37-4E44-91E8-3A080C04C6CB.jpegD487DDC4-119D-4127-A0CC-0CFFC3308F4F.jpeg
 

headshot119

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Could you throw me a source for that please. This has always been contentious at my TOC and that we have always said its just one signal at a time. Two consecutive used to require Temp Block but has now been replaced with Emergency Special working. I'd certainly love to see evidence which stated we could have always passed two in a single call.

Cheers in advance.

S5 Reg 7, brought in in 2020 allows the passing of two signals at once under very specific circumstances, and I'll be honest there's not many places you can actually do it in reality.

Emergency Special Working (S5 Reg 5) has NOT replaced Temporary Block Working (S5 Reg 6), TBW still exists, and can be used in circumstances that ESW cannot be.
 

ComUtoR

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It shouldn’t be contentious really.

Updated in 2020 and our points of contention go back way prior to that (there was an incident)

Cheers for the refresher, most appreciated.

Emergency Special Working (S5 Reg 5) has NOT replaced Temporary Block Working (S5 Reg 6), TBW still exists, and can be used in circumstances that ESW cannot be.

Apologies for the incorrect use of language. Totally aware both exist.
 

Dunnideer

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Updated in 2020 and our points of contention go back way prior to that (there was an incident)
Yes, I remember relieving a signaller of duty after they did something similar a few year ago. Turns out they were just ahead of the game!
 

headshot119

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Updated in 2020 and our points of contention go back way prior to that (there was an incident)

Cheers for the refresher, most appreciated.



Apologies for the incorrect use of language. Totally aware both exist.

No problem mate, I'm probably a bit quick to jump on these sort of things but I like to keep on top of rule based posts that might be misinterpreted by others.

Out of interest have any drivers here actually been talked by under S5 Reg 7?
 

ComUtoR

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No problem mate, I'm probably a bit quick to jump on these sort of things but I like to keep on top of rule based posts that might be misinterpreted by others.

No worries. I think my problem is that when I'm talking to other Drivers and industry people my language changes to be a bit more casual and how I'd talk at work :/


Out of interest have any drivers here actually been talked by under S5 Reg 7?

None at my TOC that I'm aware of. I think we have had one occasion of ESW and I only know a few Drivers who have done TBW. I remember when I avoided Temp Block because I really 'couldn't be bothered' so I got turned around instead :)) Personally I've passed 3 in a row but got talked past each one individually. (again, a few years back) I've also gone through PoSAs; which is another weird experience.
 

skyhigh

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Could you throw me a source for that please. This has always been contentious at my TOC and that we have always said its just one signal at a time. Two consecutive used to require Temp Block but has now been replaced with Emergency Special working. I'd certainly love to see evidence which stated we could have always passed two in a single call.

Cheers in advance.
I see I've been beaten to it but it is mentioned in the rule book. Can't say I've ever had to do it but it did come up on my last rideout.

I think we have had one occasion of ESW
We had ESW on the first day it was introduced...! Happened a few times up here.
 

Dunnideer

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Out of interest have any drivers here actually been talked by under S5 Reg 7?
Not a driver but I know one box on my Route did it last year.. unfortunately it turned out when the first train went through and got tripped that the second signal was TPWS fitted so they shouldn’t have.
 

ComUtoR

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Not a driver but I know one box on my Route did it last year.. unfortunately it turned out when the first train went through and got tripped that the second signal was TPWS fitted so they shouldn’t have.

Apologies for the language use in advance but..

As my exposure to various things have changed in recent years, I have come to realise how insular each of our roles are. As a Signaller, do you see passing signals at danger is more common than people think ? Some years I've been talked past loads but I couldn't tell you the last one I passed so I don't see it as being common.
 
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I regularly talk trains past signals at danger as a signaller - perhaps happens an average of one shift a week - but on those shift if it’s due to a failure it could be 20,30,40 times trains past one signal.
I think the improved systems, maintenance and LED heads help with the reduced need for it, but it is still very much bread and butter for a signaller.

Definitely see hardly any single line working nowadays, just diversions or cancellations. Same with Pilot working (no longer Pilotman) and TBW, with ESW coming in to reduce the staffing required to bring in TBW.
 
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Apparently the change is coming imminently, we got an email the other week - there’s a lot of rules/forms etc to update so it could take a while but the principle has been agreed and the term Pilot can be used moving forwards if we can. The exact details I’m afraid elude me and I’m not at work to check.

Edit - it’s in the RSSB proposals to come in from Sept 22
 
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ComUtoR

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Proceed on Sight Authority.

When a signal is 'broken' but is fitted with a PoSA (two whites at 45°) which flash and you can pass it without talking to the Signaller.
 

headshot119

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Apologies for the language use in advance but..

As my exposure to various things have changed in recent years, I have come to realise how insular each of our roles are. As a Signaller, do you see passing signals at danger is more common than people think ? Some years I've been talked past loads but I couldn't tell you the last one I passed so I don't see it as being common.

You'll get different opinions on this I think. From the signaling side if you've got a failure, you might talk 30 or more trains through it in a shift, but to that particular driver it's the first time in months they've been talked by.

FOC drivers working engineering trains, and even more so OTM drivers will do an awful lot of it in conjunction with possession work (As will the signallers)
 

Teddyward

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I’ve done it once. I asked the signaller to confirm 2nd signal didn’t have loops. He got the hump a bit “of course it doesn’t “. I said I just wanted to make sure we were both doing it right.
 

MotCO

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Proceed on Sight Authority.

When a signal is 'broken' but is fitted with a PoSA (two whites at 45°) which flash and you can pass it without talking to the Signaller.
Thank you.
 

Annetts key

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I know that signalling systems have ways of determining whether a signal lamp is working or not - things like lamp proving relays, or equivalent electronics for LED signals. What happens if one of these systems shows that a lamp has failed in a signal?

Does it set the previous signal to the aspect that would have been set in the failed signal? Does it give some sort of alert to the signaller (presumably differently depending whether the signalling is through a manual box, a panel or a VDU)? Or can a panel/VDU actually stop routes being set that involve that signal?

What would the procedure be for dealing with this? Obviously S&T would be asked to fix it, but in the meantime, would that signal be 'switched out' as it were? Or would you have to stop everything in the area until it was fixed?

Thanks!

Robin

Loss of lamp proving causes the previous stop signal to remain at red, so drivers would have to call in and receive permission to pass both signals. Not sure if this requires a call at each signal or whether the driver can be instructed to pass both in the same call. To complicate things, if the signal with the fault changes to a different aspect with a good lamp, all will appear to work normally until the bad aspect is to be displayed again.

Note however that classic signal lamps have two filaments. If the first filament fails they automatically switch over to the other one. This doesn't affect the operation of the signalling at all, except that the second filament is slightly off the focal point of the lens so looks a little less bright. Filament failure does however alert the technician, who can hopefully send someone out to change the lamp before it fails completely. I believe some of the newer LED signals also use the filament failure circuit to flag up if the LEDs are degraded close to the minimum acceptable levels.
To further expand on the answers…

Keep in mind that there can be some variations depending on (former BR) region, interlocking system and when said system was installed. I’m a Western region guy, so I talk WR E10,000 interlocking, but the general principles are the same for most current/modern systems.

Not all aspects on all signals are lamp proved. For example, the top yellow aspect of a four aspect signal is not lamp proved (reason being that the signal will now be showing a single yellow which is a more restrictive aspect). Not all route indicators are lamp proved (although all ‘feather’ JI are proved).

For conventional filament lamp colour light signals on main lines / passenger lines (and modern signals elsewhere), they all have a main filament and an auxiliary filament. When the main filament expires, a relay automatically causes the auxiliary filament to be lit. Drivers don’t normally notice any difference.

When a main filament fails in a signal as described above, an alarm indication or equivalent is either generated on a signallers block shelf/panel/VDU. Or on a S&T technican’s fault panel or on a list of computer generated alarms on the technicians computer terminal display.

It’s far less common now, but in some places main aspect signals on freight only lines only used lamps with a single filament.

For all red aspects in all main signals, if the lamp proving can’t detect the lamp to be lit (all types of signals including LED types), then the signal in rear will be held at red/revert to red until such time that a lamp in the signal is detected to be lit. This applies to limit of shunt signals as well.

As well as the above, the signaller will see a different indication on their block shelf/panel/VDU. Unless the
signal is an automatic and no indication has been provided for the signaller. For panels and VDUs, the red indication goes out leaving the indication dark.

If the signal is controlled by a computer based interlocking, the signaller will also get a critical alarm which they have to acknowledge. And the S&T Technican will get an alarm on the technicians computer terminal display.

For Western Region and modern practice, all this also applies to the single yellow and green aspects as well.

If a lamp proved route indicator goes out, the signal it is part of will go back to red until it is proved lit.

Note that none of the above prevents a signaller routing up to the failed signal. And it does not affect the signaller from being able to route the failed signal. The routing is a different part of the system. But the interlocking will prevent a signal clearing up with a proceed aspect to a aspect that is not proved lit. The fundamental principle is that whenever possible, the signalling system reverts to a fail save condition to protect trains.

As soon as a signaller becomes aware of a fault, they will request immediate S&T attendance unless there are no scheduled trains. In which case the fault may be downgraded to attendance at a later time/date.

If the signal is a controlled signal, or the signal in rear or ahead, depending on which aspect has failed, the signaller may be able to use a ‘work around’ as previously described. If they can’t do that, drivers have to be talked by, again as previously described.

Because of the auxiliary filament, it was rare for a main line / passenger line signal to ‘go black’ due to a filament failure long before LED signals were available.

It should be noted that there are other causes of signals ‘going black’ other than filaments failing or power failures. These include, but are not limited to the following:
  • Fuse failure,
  • Cable damage,
  • LED signal module failure,
  • Both main and auxiliary filaments failing in the same lamp or lamp holder contact fault.
 
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Ken H

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To further expand on the answers…

Keep in mind that there can be some variations depending on (former BR) region, interlocking system and when said system was installed. I’m a Western region guy, so I talk WR E10,000 interlocking, but the general principles are the same for most current/modern systems.

Not all aspects on all signals are lamp proved. For example, the top yellow aspect of a four aspect signal is not lamp proved (reason being that the signal will now be showing a single yellow which is a more restrictive aspect). Not all route indicators are lamp proved (although all ‘feather’ JI are proved).

For conventional filament lamp colour light signals on main lines / passenger lines (and modern signals elsewhere), they all have a main filament and an auxiliary filament. When the main filament expires, a relay automatically causes the auxiliary filament to be lit. Drivers don’t normally notice any difference.

When a main filament fails in a signal as described above, an alarm indication or equivalent is either generated on a signallers block shelf/panel/VDU. Or on a S&T technican’s fault panel or on a list of computer generated alarms on the technicians computer terminal display.

It’s far less common now, but in some places main aspect signals on freight only lines only used lamps with a single filament.

For all red aspects in all main signals, if the lamp proving can’t detect the lamp to be lit (all types of signals including LED types), then the signal in rear will be held at red/revert to red until such time that a lamp in the signal is detected to be lit. This applies to limit of shunt signals as well.

As well as the above, the signaller will see a different indication on their block shelf/panel/VDU. Unless the
signal is an automatic and no indication has been provided for the signaller. For panels and VDUs, the red indication goes out leaving the indication dark.

If the signal is controlled by a computer based interlocking, the signaller will also get a critical alarm which they have to acknowledge. And the S&T Technican will get an alarm on the technicians computer terminal display.

For Western Region and modern practice, all this also applies to the single yellow and green aspects as well.

If a lamp proved route indicator goes out, the signal it is part of will go back to red until it is proved lit.

Note that none of the above prevents a signaller routing up to the failed signal. And it does not affect the signal from being able to route the failed signal. The routing is a different part of the system. But the interlocking will prevent a signal clearing up with a proceed aspect to a aspect that is not proved lit.

As soon as a signaller becomes aware of a fault, they will request immediate S&T attendance unless there are no scheduled trains. In which case it may downgraded to attendance at a later time/date.

If the signal is a controlled signal, or the signal in rear or ahead, depending on which aspect has failed, tje signallers may be able to use a ‘work around’ as previously described. If they can’t do that, drivers have to be talked by, again as previously described.

Because of the auxiliary filament, it was rare for a main line / passenger line signal to ‘go black’ due to a filament failure long before LED signals were available.

It should be noted that there are other causes of signals ‘going black’ other than filaments failing or power failures. These include, but are not limited to the following:
  • Fuse failure,
  • Cable damage,
  • LED signal module failure,
  • Both main and auxiliary filaments failing in the same lamp or lamp holder contact fault.
There was an accident on the Southern Region years ago. They had some old signals that had 2 filaments both lit together. There was no proving, it replied on inspection to check the bulb was OK.
In this case the holder was degraded in that the feed to the bulb was not tight, so some arcing occurred which caused resistance so the brightness of the light was a lot less than design.
The driver missed the dim signal in the dark and rear ended the train in front. At that time Southern EMUs only had the red blinds to protect the rear of the train. No oil/electric lamp or integral red lights.
Dont think the accident inspector was impressed!
One would hope all signals like that have been replaced. We know all EMU's now have proper tail lights.
 
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