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What happens to the infrastructure of a heritage railway when it goes out of business?

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PG

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Would any of the acts of parliament from the 19th century which provided for the construction of the railways still have any force?

I'd have thought that prior to nationalisation it was likely that the landowner before the railway was built might well have had first claim on the land in the event of closure. It would certainly seems like that may well have been the case given that some old lines now have crops growing where the rails used to be.

I'm sure someone with more knowledge of the nationalisation period would be able to say if it changed to something along the lines of (no pun intended!) everything taken over by BR cancelled all previous agreements and acts of parliament; or not?
 

A0wen

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Surprised nobody's mentioned that ridiculous scheme which was being touted for the old Dunstable line......

Everything rail related that was once there is all gone and the whole area has been redeveloped. Including the bridge over including the bridge over Luton Road which I believe is where the "heritage" people (I use the word heritage in loose sense) managed to drive their shunter to without any approval which led to a bit of trouble with the authorities.
 
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pdeaves

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I'd have thought that prior to nationalisation it was likely that the landowner before the railway was built might well have had first claim on the land in the event of closure.
With the exception of any specific wording, that would come under the administrator disposals. Offer to the original landowner('s successor) at a fair price and if they don't want it, offer for sale on the open market. I doubt there would be any reason to give the land away.
 

pdeaves

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the "heritage" people (I use the word heritage in loose sense) managed to drive their shunter to without any approval which led to a bit of trouble with the authorities.
Yes, that was a bit foolish and did preservation in particular and railways in general no favours.
 

A0wen

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Yes, that was a bit foolish and did preservation in particular and railways in general no favours.

That's a bit of an understatement ! Stupid and reckless comes a bit closer.

Equally, I was never convinced a ride around a semi-derelict area of Dunstable on a decrepit DMU or a knackered Mk1 with a diesel shunter was ever likely to be a viable heritage line - and that's with the benefit of knowing the area. The fact that less than 10 miles away there is one of the best narrow gauge railways in the UK, which like most others, is always seeking additional volunteers, seemed to be dismissed with a "but Bedfordshire *needs* a standard gauge steam railway as a tourist attraction" - yeah right....... At least if they'd proposed restoring a bit of the old Hitchin - Bedford line there would have been some scenic merit to the proposal.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's a bit of an understatement ! Stupid and reckless comes a bit closer.

Equally, I was never convinced a ride around a semi-derelict area of Dunstable on a decrepit DMU or a knackered Mk1 with a diesel shunter was ever likely to be a viable heritage line - and that's with the benefit of knowing the area. The fact that less than 10 miles away there is one of the best narrow gauge railways in the UK, which like most others, is always seeking additional volunteers, seemed to be dismissed with a "but Bedfordshire *needs* a standard gauge steam railway as a tourist attraction" - yeah right....... At least if they'd proposed restoring a bit of the old Hitchin - Bedford line there would have been some scenic merit to the proposal.

Agreed. The line did have reopening potential to some extent (as a public transport railway, not a heritage line), but the Busway has now taken it over anyway.
 

A0wen

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Agreed. The line did have reopening potential to some extent (as a public transport railway, not a heritage line), but the Busway has now taken it over anyway.

No it didn't - at least not once Thameslink got going in the mid 80s with the increase in services on the MML which meant fewer paths. It was only ever a single-track line so at best could only support a service every 30 mins (and it was always single track, not singled due to an economy measure) and to access it meant crossing the fasts somewhere around Luton, unless a *very expensive* flyover was built to avoid that - to provide context the Hitchin flyover cost £ 47m in 2013 and that was supporting services to Cambridge and minimising delays to the ECML. Cambridge is somewhat more of a destination than Dunstable. And, probably the killer, Leagrave station is 3 miles from Dunstable town centre, complete with a 4tph service.

Had Dunstable been reinstated when the Bedpan line was electrified in the late 70s / early 80s it *might* have stood a chance. Not by the 1990s with Thameslink.
 

A0wen

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A factoid for interest's sake: Dunstable appeared on (some?) NSE class 319 roller destination blinds.

Yeah - I'd heard that, but equally there have been no shortage of destinations on blinds which were either impossible or unlikely - the GN 312s as delivered had Peterboro' (with that spelling) on them, but I have a feeling the wires only reached Peterborough once the 312s had left - so 10 years after they'd been built.

I'm sure someone claimed the Bedpan 317s also had some other destinations on them - Kettering & Corby for example though that may just be an urban myth.
 
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Any chance of a separate thread for all this discussion about Dunstable, and leave this one for those who have concerns about the heritage sector please?
 

Midnight Sun

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Haven't the preserved railways already generally been left with the bits of line that aren't attractive to highway engineers?

There a number of lines with trackbeds that would be very attractive to highway engineers.

If for example the Swanage line was closed, the highway engineers at County Hall would quickly dust off two sets of plans that they have for the trackbed in places (For which the trackbed was brought in the firstplace). The first being plans for the Corfe Castle by-pass along the trackbed, This very nearly happen in 1980's which would have left the Swanage line ending at the edge of Town, over a mile from the castle. The other section being between the Victoria Ave bridge (Which would have been replace with roundabout) and Station Road. This was to provide a new access road to take traffice off the narrow High Street. This plan was dropped after the 1976 town vote on reopening the line.

Sections of the Dartmouth line would be attractive to Devon highway engineers, Take the section from the Bridge road Level crossing to Kingwear station, the trackbed would provide a level and straight access road into Kingswear. As for the trackbed from Hollicombe Beach to Churston, Highway engineers would see this as just the route for a new bypass.

As would sections of trackbed around Bodmin, Then there is the North Dorset at Shillingstone, the trackbed follow the route that a by-pass would take. The same with Midsomer Norton, the A367 could be rerouted along the trackbed from Radstock right down through Midsomer Norton down to a new junction at the Wells road roundbout. The North Norfolk railway lost the route through to Melton Constable when the council used the trackbed for a new road. The North Norfolk station for Holt is now in High Kelling, Holt Town Centre is over a mile away.

I only looked at some preserved lines, the power of the road lobby should never be underestimated.
 

A0wen

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There a number of lines with trackbeds that would be very attractive to highway engineers.

If for example the Swanage line was closed, the highway engineers at County Hall would quickly dust off two sets of plans that they have for the trackbed in places (For which the trackbed was brought in the firstplace). The first being plans for the Corfe Castle by-pass along the trackbed, This very nearly happen in 1980's which would have left the Swanage line ending at the edge of Town, over a mile from the castle. The other section being between the Victoria Ave bridge (Which would have been replace with roundabout) and Station Road. This was to provide a new access road to take traffice off the narrow High Street. This plan was dropped after the 1976 town vote on reopening the line.

Sections of the Dartmouth line would be attractive to Devon highway engineers, Take the section from the Bridge road Level crossing to Kingwear station, the trackbed would provide a level and straight access road into Kingswear. As for the trackbed from Hollicombe Beach to Churston, Highway engineers would see this as just the route for a new bypass.

As would sections of trackbed around Bodmin, Then there is the North Dorset at Shillingstone, the trackbed follow the route that a by-pass would take. The same with Midsomer Norton, the A367 could be rerouted along the trackbed from Radstock right down through Midsomer Norton down to a new junction at the Wells road roundbout. The North Norfolk railway lost the route through to Melton Constable when the council used the trackbed for a new road. The North Norfolk station for Holt is now in High Kelling, Holt Town Centre is over a mile away.

I only looked at some preserved lines, the power of the road lobby should never be underestimated.

Whilst in theory you're probably right - I think the risk to established heritage lines is very low as they are part of the area's tourist offerings, so it's a bit paranoid to claim that lines like Swanage are 'under threat' from the road builders.

Some of the smaller, more marginal heritage lines are likely to fall by the wayside - the 400 yards of track and a couple of decrepit Mk1s and some industrial diesel shunters, but then again there have been no shortage of other heritage schemes which have failed and most of those have failed due to being a poor offering with little appeal.
 
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Whilst in theory you're probably right - I think the risk to established heritage lines is very low as they are part of the area's tourist offerings, so it's a bit paranoid to claim that lines like Swanage are 'under threat' from the road builders.
Absolutely correct. There is no chance of a by-pass along that route now. Congested as Corfe Castle is there would be outrage if a new road were cut through the area, as any by-pass along the trackbed would only be yards from the village. Better to have a regular rail service and encourage beach traffic to use the park and ride at Norden, or set one up further away even at Wareham.
 

Midnight Sun

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Whilst in theory you're probably right - I think the risk to established heritage lines is very low as they are part of the area's tourist offerings, so it's a bit paranoid to claim that lines like Swanage are 'under threat' from the road builders.

Some of the smaller, more marginal heritage lines are likely to fall by the wayside - the 400 yards of track and a couple of decrepit Mk1s and some industrial diesel shunters, but then again there have been no shortage of other heritage schemes which have failed and most of those have failed due to being a poor offering with little appeal.

Not being paranoid, I leave that to you. A question was asked I smiple answered with examples. I lived in the nearby hamlet of Aurn and Ridge for many years. Dorset Council highways department has been ant-rail for many years. What grants that have come from DCC to the railway come through Purbeck Council who are nomore. Back in the late 60's and 70's The council highways department supported the closing of a number of lines in the county to allow road inprovments. This included the Swanage line as well, had the money been around after the line closed. The by-pass would have been built in the 70's. As it was there was only enough funds to buy the trackbeds at the time.

The other lines being the Bridport line, the trackbed through Bridport is now the bypass. The old S&D line from Broadstone to Blandford used for MOD traffic to Blandford Camp, Highways wanted the line closed to remove a number of S bend bridges along the route. And then there is Poole to West Moors along the old line of the corkscrew, again used by the MOD for traffic to West Moors Oil depot. Again highways wanted the line closed for road inprovements. The section of line between Poole and Broadstone is now the Broadstone Way, The bridge over the Leigh road was removed to allow the road to be widen. The last section of track bed from Canford bottom is now under the Ferndown bypass. The line had it remained open would be very useful today with all that new housing.

The Highways department has not had its way all the time.

Take a look at a map of Poole and Borunemouth, You will see two major roads, the Dorset Way (A3049)from the Bakers Arms to Alderney roundabout, the other being the Wessex Way (A338) from Ringwood to Westbourne. These two roads were ment to linkup. You can still see land corridor to this day, Bouremouth West Station was in the way so it was closed. Where the council come unstuck when BR built a depot on the trackbed. The Wessex Way was to have used the track bed as far as the old Junction towards London. The road would have crossed over the line passed through the northeast corner of the industrial estate on Dalling Road then along the land corridor across Tabot Heath which is now a SSI. to link up with the Dorset Way

Back at the start of the 1990's, Swanage was aready an established heritage line running between Harmans Cross and Swanage with the line being extended towards Norden, the railhead had aready had reached Corfe Castle. Things looked very rosely and things were runnng well. Yet the railway come within days of being wound-up in the High Court and put into Liquidation. The general manager at the time had been out of his depth, rather than admit that there were major problems instead buried his head in the sand. Bills went unpaided, Letters unopened and the debt mounted every higher. It was only when one of the creditors contacted the chairman, that things come to light on how bad things were. It was a number of years before the railway was back on a firm footing. That process was Operation Millstone, which it was. It took another four more years to complete tha last mile of track to Norden before the line could open between Harmans Cross and Norden.
As you can see even a established heritage line can be at risk. Which is why Swanage was one of the first line to release an appeal due to the virus lockdown. The line having been that close to being would up before, they have have no wish to get that close again.



Absolutely correct. There is no chance of a by-pass along that route now. Congested as Corfe Castle is there would be outrage if a new road were cut through the area, as any by-pass along the trackbed would only be yards from the village. Better to have a regular rail service and encourage beach traffic to use the park and ride at Norden, or set one up further away even at Wareham.

There is still a great deal of support for a by-pass for Corfe in the area. The cars are not the problem, it is the heavy goods vehicles that are the trouble, shaking the foundations of the buildings they pass. The trackbed is far further away than a few yards from the buiildings plus there is thick line of trees as well.
 

Titfield

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Setting up a park and ride at Wareham probably isnt the best of ideas: a)lack of space for a large car park, b) the A351 between the Bakers Arms Roundabout and Wareham is the most congested section. A better idea would be to use Holton Heath as a park and ride but that brings quite a few challenges as well. Is it such a good idea to allow 60 uear old DMUs onto a mainline. If they break down and cause a delay the effects will be felt in Waterloo very quickly.

Refering back to an older post the biggest threat to Swanage Railway (as a heritage railway) would be if Dorset Council decide that a service along the line 0700 - 1900 to provde a 2 hourly 6 day a week service between Swanage and Wareham would deliver an attractive lower carbon alternative to car travel. Given that all the infrastructure is there it could be a very quick win and low cost compared to say the costs of building new roads or road widening schemes. It could even enable Dorset to meet its new house building obligation to build say a large number of new houses at Harmans Cross (station already there) and at Norden (station already there).
 

paul1609

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Setting up a park and ride at Wareham probably isnt the best of ideas: a)lack of space for a large car park, b) the A351 between the Bakers Arms Roundabout and Wareham is the most congested section. A better idea would be to use Holton Heath as a park and ride but that brings quite a few challenges as well. Is it such a good idea to allow 60 uear old DMUs onto a mainline. If they break down and cause a delay the effects will be felt in Waterloo very quickly.

Refering back to an older post the biggest threat to Swanage Railway (as a heritage railway) would be if Dorset Council decide that a service along the line 0700 - 1900 to provde a 2 hourly 6 day a week service between Swanage and Wareham would deliver an attractive lower carbon alternative to car travel. Given that all the infrastructure is there it could be a very quick win and low cost compared to say the costs of building new roads or road widening schemes. It could even enable Dorset to meet its new house building obligation to build say a large number of new houses at Harmans Cross (station already there) and at Norden (station already there).
Purbeck is an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty which is looking to obtain National Park Status. Large developments of housing anywhere south of Wareham to justify the railway line would cause public outrage.
 

Titfield

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There is still a requirement to build more houses and they can be built in an AONB. A new development is going in on the old grammar school site at Swanage. It may cause an outrage but house building on Purbeck is inevitable.
 
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