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What if I dont have the money (Summons now received)
- Thread starter bebu
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You've contradicted yourself multiple times in different posts. Sorry to be the one to say this, but if you can't get your story straight, it makes the chance of people here helping you and the chance of a successful court outcome slim.
I apologise if there's a genuine reason why you're having trouble recalling facts.
Well, I'm going to have to say that given the OP has been told that there is now no option but to appear in Court, presumably as all attempts at settlement have failed, I can't quite see how this forum can be of assistance, unless there is a technical angle we've overlooked.
I presume the focus would now be mitigation - if the OP can provide convincing information that they asked for the wrong train, and subsequently were pointed in the wrong direction, I presume they will be looked upon more favourably. If the OP can also prove that they were willing to pay the fare due but defaulted for factors outside their control, rather than simply hoping it would go away, I suspect the non-payment will not stand against them.
Sadly the OP does not seem to be able to provide a consistent account.
Perhaps, but mitigating for somebody who has not been keeping their side of a bargain with regards to payment schedules is not going to be straightforward. I suspect only DaveNewcastle can be of any assistance here.
I think the OP needs to appear in court, explain that she showed her ticket to a member of staff and he directed her to the wrong train (if this is true) and let a magistrates bench of three normal people decide her fate.
She may be lucky.
She needs to have clear records of how much she has paid, when, and to whom.
Well I am subscribed to the thread, as I choose subscribe via instant email which goes to my gmail, but for some funny reason, I dont get alerts
About getting the facts wrong, I had to revert to my initial appeal, thats why I correct the initial dates. Here is a copy of the initial appeal I sent to them
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38489312/rpss.png
By the way, am a He
I honestly couldnt afford the fee, as I had true mitigating circumstances. As the divorce I went through and denial of contact with my daughter did my head in. Which am pulling through now. I guess I will have to take these facts along with my previous bank statements to the courts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OK my questions now, If when I appear in court. What do i expect and what do I say ?
Plead guilty ? dress formal/suit or casual ?
bearing in mind I dont have a rep. But can show proof of my circumstances.
I'm not sure these facts will make a bit of difference to be honest.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Unfortunately, I am still without adequate understanding to be able to give the most successful advice.
Some of the thoughts from island and 34D seem to close off some possible routes to the least damaging outcome.
In addition to the trail of existing correspondence over the past year (which isn't forthcoming), there will have been other statements (leading to the financial settlements in the form of a payment plan and a settlement by a family member) and there will be personal factors (which we don't know) which can have a tremendous impact on the outcome of the Court Hearing.
There is actually good reason to expect that an agreeable settlement can be reached, whether privately with the Prosecution, or in mitigation to the Bench. Frankly, the actual Offence (which we can now see is only a Byelaw Offence) is hardly worth worrying about at this stage - it makes no difference to the outcome now that there is a failed payment plan.
It is in bebu's interest to remain focussed on the (comparitively) trivial matter of a Railway Byelaw 18 Offence (rather than defaulting on a payment plan ordered by a Court).
There is still the option to ask the Court to defer the Hearing while new matters are being prepared for submission by a new advocate - an advocate who will look hard at bebu's personal circumstances. The baby will make the threat of a defaulted payment plan leading to a custodial sentence irrelevant; in fact there a few respects in which bebu's circumstances may make the Prosection walk away from the hearing.
Yes, indeed!
Its far from unknown for a Prosecutor to abandon a Byelaw Prosecution in face of poor prospects of recovery, informed by evidence of (relative) poverty and responsibilities for the are of a child (or other person).
So where do we go from here?
Bebu is reluctant or unable to provide the vital trail of evidence on here, has little means to pay the fine due, has no means to pay a solicitor, and time is running out.
None of us are aware of enough background to give advice which doesn't miss one opportunity or another to minimise the impact of the outcome.
Consequently, I propose:
a) bebu seeks a local Law Firm who may give free assistance for a brief session to advise on mitigation (and only on the mitigation) with a view to the Prosecutor abandoning the case on the grounds that it would probably lead to either a discharge or a Default; or
b) bebu asks the Court for an adjournment and seeks more specialist assistance with a view to having the matter dismissed using some of the historic evidence (which is currently obscure).
bebu. I expect that my reply is 'speaking over your head' and I admit that it is also aimed at some of the other commentators on here.
But please note - You must act now ! If you attend the Court without representation they will Prosecute and make a payment order which, if you fail to maintain, would probably lead to prisonment if it wasn't for your child - that is not a position any parent should choose.
I don't think you would make a very good Defendant-in-person.
Yes, dress well, but that's not relevant.
Yes, I guess that you are guilty of the Byelaw 18 Offence (you might have successfully argued it last Springtime, but having entered into the payment plan you'd need to be able to argue why you were wrongly comitted to that scheme) so you might as well tell the prosection now that you intend to plea Guilty, to reduce the costs charged against you.
The proof of your circumstances will be very relevant, but they'd be more persusive if presented to a Prosecutor before the Hearing, rather than having copies of papers handed out on the day of the Hearing without forewarning; Courts don't respond well to having evidence introduced unexpectedly.
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But where in the thread is a baby mentioned Dave? I only saw "daughter" which could be any age.
I have no concept of whether the age of a child has any bearing on a case, but in the interests that many new members seem to take note of existing threads before posting their own, is this the case?
Of course I also understand that you may well have spoken to the OP via PM as well, and therefore know the age of the child.
Qwerty133
Established Member
S/he does mention that the daughter is 4 in there post at 12:56 today (sat)
Yes you are right, Dave. Lots of what you said is above my head, and I will sleep over it.
However, If i was to go to doncaster and defer to another date, it would still cost me money to get to doncaster from hull. If its possible to just plead guilty and bite the bullet ( ie the fine ) its better than deferring it and looking for a solicitor ( forgive my ignorance if am getting it wrong here ) If going to court is the only option, I rather get it over with, as its not the end of life.
I dont fully understand everything you said, will reply in detail tomorrow. But I think this would be great
Many thanks
However, If i was to go to doncaster and defer to another date, it would still cost me money to get to doncaster from hull. If its possible to just plead guilty and bite the bullet ( ie the fine ) its better than deferring it and looking for a solicitor ( forgive my ignorance if am getting it wrong here ) If going to court is the only option, I rather get it over with, as its not the end of life.
I dont fully understand everything you said, will reply in detail tomorrow. But I think this would be great
Many thanks
Hold on a sec according to your appeal (if I am reading this correctly that is) You were booked on the 14.35 service. Got your tickets out of the machine at 13.48 then boarded the 13.51 service. Can I ask why you did not ask the memeber of staff where the 14.35 service was departing from?
Did you honestly accidently board an earlier train than booked on or did you just want to travel earlier? Sorry if I sound quite sceptical but the railway gets lots of people with advanced tickets who turn up early and then just board the next train whether it is their booked train or not. Honesty is the best thing you can do now.
Passenger focus website is littered with complaints from other passengers who have done the same thing with advanced tickets. Think passengers should be made more aware of the conditions regarding advanced tickets.
Did you honestly accidently board an earlier train than booked on or did you just want to travel earlier? Sorry if I sound quite sceptical but the railway gets lots of people with advanced tickets who turn up early and then just board the next train whether it is their booked train or not. Honesty is the best thing you can do now.
Passenger focus website is littered with complaints from other passengers who have done the same thing with advanced tickets. Think passengers should be made more aware of the conditions regarding advanced tickets.
The OP asked for the Hull train and was directed to the Hull train, the OP should have asked for the Doncaster train because that is where they were changing trains so wasnt directed to the wrong train.
General comment.
I really cant understand why people (in general) find it so difficult to look at the screens to find their train, all the info they need is there specifically the departure time and then the calling points but instead go to a memeber of staff, give them the bare minimum info and expect to be directed correctly.
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Indeed you are right, thanks for pointing that out.
I'm still interested in what effects the age of a child can potentially have on a case though. That is if I understood correctly what Dave said!
Monty
Established Member
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- 12 Jun 2012
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Speaking personally, I think there are very few options for the OP in this case. The OP boarded the incorrect train with an advanced ticket, they were then issued an Unpaid Fares Notice (UFN) for the cost of a standard open single to Hull (this is an assumption on my part but that is what should have been issued at the time). The OP attempted to appeal their liability and this appeal was duly rejected, unable to pay the fare in full a payment plan was agreed upon. But beacuse of financial limitations the OP is unable to honour the payments previously agreed to.
If it's any confort at all, a Byelaw 18 offence is a civil matter and not a criminal one, you will not receive a criminal record if found guilty. However I do strongly advise you to seek legal advice, the Citizens Advice Bureau would be a good start, because of your circumstances you may be intitled to legal aid.
There is very little we as a forum can advice further on this matter I am afraid.
If it's any confort at all, a Byelaw 18 offence is a civil matter and not a criminal one, you will not receive a criminal record if found guilty. However I do strongly advise you to seek legal advice, the Citizens Advice Bureau would be a good start, because of your circumstances you may be intitled to legal aid.
There is very little we as a forum can advice further on this matter I am afraid.
Pedants view-
You bought an advance ticket which restricts you to one train, turned up at the station late for the train, didnt bother looking at the departure screens which display all the information you need, asked a bloke "where is the Hull train" despite wanting the xxxx departure to Doncaster, got directed to the Hull train (which you asked for), were issued with an unpaid fares notice because your ticket wasnt valid for that train (correct procedure by the guard), you then didnt pay the UFN, made a payment arrange to clear the debt but didnt pay that either, you are now being taken to court by the rail company for the outstanding money.
Is that about it?
edit-
Monty, while you are correct about the section 18 offence being a civil matter, this has escalated now as he has failed to pay the UFN or keep up the payment plan, this could very quickly turn into a criminal matter, I am not sure at which point non payment becomes a criminal matter but I would assume that now it is going to court (and only payment in full now would prevent that happening) if the court order is not paid then I assume that would be a criminal offence.
You bought an advance ticket which restricts you to one train, turned up at the station late for the train, didnt bother looking at the departure screens which display all the information you need, asked a bloke "where is the Hull train" despite wanting the xxxx departure to Doncaster, got directed to the Hull train (which you asked for), were issued with an unpaid fares notice because your ticket wasnt valid for that train (correct procedure by the guard), you then didnt pay the UFN, made a payment arrange to clear the debt but didnt pay that either, you are now being taken to court by the rail company for the outstanding money.
Is that about it?
edit-
Monty, while you are correct about the section 18 offence being a civil matter, this has escalated now as he has failed to pay the UFN or keep up the payment plan, this could very quickly turn into a criminal matter, I am not sure at which point non payment becomes a criminal matter but I would assume that now it is going to court (and only payment in full now would prevent that happening) if the court order is not paid then I assume that would be a criminal offence.
Monty
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Jun 2012
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- 2,352
It all depends on what the OP is being prosecuted for exactly, if it's what it says on the extract the OP has posted earlier then I doubt it will turn in to a criminal matter at first, however if they default on the fine imposed by the courts than that indeed could be a different matter altogether.
The OP needs to be a little more forthcoming with the information contained in the summons and any other correspondence they have had with East Coast prior to that.
This is going to read a lot nastier than it is meant to so I apologise in advance, right here goes-
The OP keeps going on about not being able to afford the "fine" but then goes on about laptops etc, I am sure the court will look on it that as you can afford a laptop (plus a mobile phone etc I assume) you DO have the money to pay but just choose not to.
A mobile and laptop are not seen as esentials but paying a fine is.
As for the divorce/ not seeing your little girl, unfortunately not relevant to the case although it is absolutely {deleted} how the (supposed) equal rights go out the window where kids and visitation are concerned, been there done that.
Sorry to sound nasty but this could get really messy if you are not careful and I am sure you could do without this with everything else going on in your life.
The OP keeps going on about not being able to afford the "fine" but then goes on about laptops etc, I am sure the court will look on it that as you can afford a laptop (plus a mobile phone etc I assume) you DO have the money to pay but just choose not to.
A mobile and laptop are not seen as esentials but paying a fine is.
As for the divorce/ not seeing your little girl, unfortunately not relevant to the case although it is absolutely {deleted} how the (supposed) equal rights go out the window where kids and visitation are concerned, been there done that.
Sorry to sound nasty but this could get really messy if you are not careful and I am sure you could do without this with everything else going on in your life.
Indeed you are right, thanks for pointing that out.
I'm still interested in what effects the age of a child can potentially have on a case though. That is if I understood correctly what Dave said!
I suspect that, roughly speaking, the younger a child, the less desirable it is for them to live with another friend or relative rather than a parent. The court will therefore be more likely to reduce the fine issued.
I'll be honest - I'd consider them essentials in this day and age. Many jobs are applied for online and employers will expect a typed up CV. Public machines without excessive charge are hard to find (outside educational establishments - and I presume the OP no longer has such access).
Same with a mobile phone these days - companies will expect to be able to contact candidates in such a way.
In any case, the OP has also previously pawned his laptop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But the £20 cost of getting to Doncaster is likely to much less than the likely increase in the fine, if you don't represent yourself properly in court.
Might I strongly suggest that you follow what Dave has suggested? As Dave has pointed out there's a chance that the prosecution will be abandoned since you may end up defaulting on payment of the costs.
Sorry guys from the way I am reading the OP's account he turned up 40 mins before his booked train, asked the staff member what the next train was and got on it. Never seemed to mention about the advance ticket. He was not put on the wrong train by staff. I wish passengers would read the t&c's of advance tickets and realise they are valid for one train only and can't just board an earlier service because you got there earlier than planned and dont want to wait and similarly for turning up late.
would it help if I scanned and uploaded it ???
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A LITTLE BACKGROUND
Well to be honest, before my split from my x, I used to buy tickets at the station ( as I lived down south back then ) and when I moved to hull, I used to buy tickets online, however I buy a ticket for a specific time. ( My proposed travel date )
I must have seen it was for a specific time, as I just checked again, however wasnt on my mind on that day.
Bearing in mind,
1. I showed the onground staff my ticket and
2. I asked a staff at the station, which was the train to hull, who pointed me to the train ( After showing him my ticket, A SPECIFIC TRAIN time was not on my mind )
3. Who also opened the gates for me ( This am 100% sure of )
4. Although this is not a valid point, but I was not in the right frame of mind that day, as the only reason I went to london was
--- My x fixed a date to meet with my daughter that day, So I went to spend a few days with my extended family and was to stop at peterborough enroute hull that day, but she cancelled the night before. Which got me quite depressed on the day.
Most important, I was not at the least bothered about wrong or right train, at that period.
Point noted.
Point also noted.
Redact the personal/ identifying information first if you do.
I do understand what you mean, and dont think its nasty. I appreciate bluntness and truth, after all. Thats what am going to face in the courts.
HOwever I dont think both are luxuries. But are essentials, bearing in mind, I studied computer science at uni and I just started an online business in october 2012.
Now with regards the issue at hand, ie the court case, from all I have learnt.
1. I should plead guilty ?
2. dress smart
3. Explain myself or try to adjourn pending I get a solicitor or representative, as I dont have one and dont think I have the time to get one before the case this week starting ?
many thanks to everyone for your advice and valuable time.
B
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Yes, if you have no experience of the protocols in the Magistrate's Court then I wouldn't advise a Not Guilty plea. There are arguments which would probably 'get you off' a Guilty plea, but they'd have to be presented by someone able to argue them for you (a solicitor).
To 'dress smart' is fine.
The other area for you to concentrate on is your personal income. There's not much point in prosecuting someone for an amount that they're unlikely to be able to pay (although Courts do this all the time - making orders of £5 a month which deafults and creating more work for everyone!). Again, there is scope to argue this, not just in Court, but with the Prosecution beforehand, and preferably with a professional to argue it for you. It would be easier to agree with the East Coast Prosecutor that its going to be difficult to make any repayments and because of [details of your personal situation and income] you'd like to try to make some sort of settlement that they will accept.
If they won't agree, then you'd have to ask the Court to consider all these personal factors.
If you can visit a Citizens Advice Bureau office, then someone there will help you to prepare a statement of your means and ability to pay.
You should be able to ask for an adjounment if you have any real prospect of getting someone to represent you at a later hearing. Contact the Clerk to the Court's office a.s.a.p. to do this. They'll require it in writing.
If you do post some of the past correspondence, then all our advice may change!
To 'dress smart' is fine.
The other area for you to concentrate on is your personal income. There's not much point in prosecuting someone for an amount that they're unlikely to be able to pay (although Courts do this all the time - making orders of £5 a month which deafults and creating more work for everyone!). Again, there is scope to argue this, not just in Court, but with the Prosecution beforehand, and preferably with a professional to argue it for you. It would be easier to agree with the East Coast Prosecutor that its going to be difficult to make any repayments and because of [details of your personal situation and income] you'd like to try to make some sort of settlement that they will accept.
If they won't agree, then you'd have to ask the Court to consider all these personal factors.
If you can visit a Citizens Advice Bureau office, then someone there will help you to prepare a statement of your means and ability to pay.
You should be able to ask for an adjounment if you have any real prospect of getting someone to represent you at a later hearing. Contact the Clerk to the Court's office a.s.a.p. to do this. They'll require it in writing.
If you do post some of the past correspondence, then all our advice may change!
This is the cover letter
Deleted - contains personal information
other important ones are
1. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/58677615/summons2.jpg
2. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/58677615/summons5.jpg
more coming....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having looked through the other correspondence, I dont think they are relevant to show here. HOwever below are my appeal that was rejected, a
1. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/58677615/summons1.jpg
2. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/58677615/summons4.jpg
3. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38489312/summons6.jpg
I think these are the most important.
I just dug up my previous bank statements, which I will take to the courts, also correspondence with the money advice service, when I was badly in debt and solicitors and mediation service for my daughter, which were all around the same period.
The whole situation got me worried and I was thinking and now recall quite clearly, before I board any train, since I always go for the cheap tickets, I always ask an inspector/onground staff.
I remember the last time I took a train in victoria to kent, and asked the staff, as I bought the ticket online also, he told me to wait for any train on platform ( xxx) So I asked if he was sure, as I didnt want to get in trouble with them, and he said "YES, that my ticket was only restricted to certain trains, as long as I dont board a HIGH SPEED TRAIN"
This experience of a particular time, has been my first sting, and honestly I was not trying to play smart in the least.
I will gather all my documents and prepare for my defense, sadly I cant afford a solicitor and wont be seeking one.
many thanks
B
Deleted - contains personal information
other important ones are
1. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/58677615/summons2.jpg
2. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/58677615/summons5.jpg
more coming....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having looked through the other correspondence, I dont think they are relevant to show here. HOwever below are my appeal that was rejected, a
1. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/58677615/summons1.jpg
2. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/58677615/summons4.jpg
3. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38489312/summons6.jpg
I think these are the most important.
I just dug up my previous bank statements, which I will take to the courts, also correspondence with the money advice service, when I was badly in debt and solicitors and mediation service for my daughter, which were all around the same period.
The whole situation got me worried and I was thinking and now recall quite clearly, before I board any train, since I always go for the cheap tickets, I always ask an inspector/onground staff.
I remember the last time I took a train in victoria to kent, and asked the staff, as I bought the ticket online also, he told me to wait for any train on platform ( xxx) So I asked if he was sure, as I didnt want to get in trouble with them, and he said "YES, that my ticket was only restricted to certain trains, as long as I dont board a HIGH SPEED TRAIN"
This experience of a particular time, has been my first sting, and honestly I was not trying to play smart in the least.
I will gather all my documents and prepare for my defense, sadly I cant afford a solicitor and wont be seeking one.
many thanks
B
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Discounting everything else, I'd say this would be a massive mistake. Are you not able to apply for Legal Aid? I'd also be having a trip to the Citizens Advice Bureau as well.
I would agree that representing yourself is probably a serious mistake and you should investigate Legal Aid as 142094 suggests, you can find more information here.
Its not unless they would agree to adjourn it, as I am out of time, as the whole thing is getting me very depressed, so I am off to stay with family again.
... As I live alone at present and had spent mid december to jan 2nd with family so got the correspondence late, I had initially tried to get it sorted calling the east coast office, when I got back and got the summons, but they said there is nothing I could do, unless I write ( snail mail ) the RPSS office.
I had a TIA ( Mild stroke when I was 26, out of too much depression ) and after going through a divorce and not seeing my daughter since april to date, it is doing my head in. So I was advised to stay happy to keep out of depression.
I will call the citizens advice B on my way tomorrow and see if something can be done. I am on legal aid, for a solicitor for contact my daughter, I was assuming legal aid for such would be stopped december 2012 ???
However my bank statements and lots other evidence I got, TRULY SHOWS, I NEVER PLAYED GAMES about not being able to pay the fine
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