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What incentive is there to go by train?

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yorkie

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The rail industry and those who have responsibility for regulating / overseeing the rail industry really does appear to be trying to make rail as unattractive as possible, while wasting as much fare/taxpayers money as possible.

It really is depressing at times.
 
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cactustwirly

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Indeed, however £1,000/year is still a fairly cheap car in terms of depreciation & certainly cheap compared to lease charges where £1,500+/year averaged over the term is still fairly cheap (£125/month including initial deposit).

Also if you pay £2/week for parking that adds a further £100.

Even adding an extra £500 to the depression or any other costs adds a further 5p/mile.

Likewise lowering the milage further increases the costs, taking the quoted figures and halving the miles to 5,000 miles the cost jumps to ~44ppm.

I own my car outright so I don't pay any lease charges. And the depreciation is nothing as it is right at the bottom of the depreciation curve, the car is very low mileage for the age so adding additional miles to it won't affect the value.

So far I've paid:
£850 for the car
£300 for VED
£550 for insurance and breakdown
£500 for a new set of tyres
£200 for new brakes
£100 for a decent service, including brake fluid, filters and gearbox oil.

The brakes and tyres should last the remaining lifetime of the car, so the running costs for next year are £40 MOT, VED and insurance.
 

miami

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However it would also mean that there would be less cars on the roads around the local area, mashing it a more pleasant place to live and making it nicer to walk/cycle helping to reduce traffic further.

And more cars garaged on the street for free during the day - making it a less pleasant place. A large amount of land in towns is used by people extending their houses onto public land (often pavements). For some reason I'm not allowed to store some stuff from my garage on the street (broken washing machine for example), but I can store other stuff (car). It's crazy.

If people were no longer subsidized for the land they use maybe the economics in towns would change
 

The Ham

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I own my car outright so I don't pay any lease charges. And the depreciation is nothing as it is right at the bottom of the depreciation curve, the car is very low mileage for the age so adding additional miles to it won't affect the value.

So far I've paid:
£850 for the car
£300 for VED
£550 for insurance and breakdown
£500 for a new set of tyres
£200 for new brakes
£100 for a decent service, including brake fluid, filters and gearbox oil.

The brakes and tyres should last the remaining lifetime of the car, so the running costs for next year are £40 MOT, VED and insurance.

Even at £300 depreciation (total) plus the maintenance already done and those annual costs over three years that's about £1,200/year plus fuel and parking.

Therefore depending on the amount on those that's still likely to be £1,500 (circa 3,000 miles and no parking) to £2,500 per year (10,000 miles plus an average of £1/day on parking).
 

miami

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Therefore depending on the amount on those that's still likely to be £1,500 (circa 3,000 miles and no parking) to £2,500 per year (10,000 miles plus an average of £1/day on parking).

So marginal cost of about 15p a mile?

For me to go one stop to Crewe costs 38p/mile - return (twice that single)

My wife is working at a school next year in Winsford, a 25 minute 10 mile journey.

By train, it costs 32p/mile, (and involves a 2h10 ordeal each way)

For most people and most journeys, the train doesn't make financial or time sense.

I'm looking at a week in scotland next month, theoretically could take the train to say Dalwhinnie for £450 return for the family - but then what? Have to stay in the town and not visit anywhere nearby.

Instead I could drive the 700 mile round trip, budget 45p a mile (3 times the marginal cost), save £140, and have a car available at the far end.

Or I could hire a Ford Focus for a week for £177, pay the petrol of about £70, and not worry about insurance, deprecation, tyres, servicing, etc, and save £200 on the cost of the train.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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So marginal cost of about 15p a mile?

For me to go one stop to Crewe costs 38p/mile - return (twice that single)

My wife is working at a school next year in Winsford, a 25 minute 10 mile journey.

By train, it costs 32p/mile, (and involves a 2h10 ordeal each way)

For most people and most journeys, the train doesn't make financial or time sense.

I'm looking at a week in scotland next month, theoretically could take the train to say Dalwhinnie for £450 return for the family - but then what? Have to stay in the town and not visit anywhere nearby.

Instead I could drive the 700 mile round trip, budget 45p a mile (3 times the marginal cost), save £140, and have a car available at the far end.

Or I could hire a Ford Focus for a week for £177, pay the petrol of about £70, and not worry about insurance, deprecation, tyres, servicing, etc, and save £200 on the cost of the train.
Assuming you are a family with at least one under 16, then if you got a Family Railcard you would pay £290.90 return for the train, assuming 2 adults and 2 children, and including the cost of the Railcard.

Still not particularly competitive but a damn sight better than £450!

But it's true - the larger a group gets (whilst still being able to fit in a single car), the less competitive public transport usually is.
 

miami

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Assuming you are a family with at least one under 16, then if you got a Family Railcard you would pay £290.90 return for the train, assuming 2 adults and 2 children, and including the cost of the Railcard.

More reasons why normal people wouldn't even consider the train.


Normal people put in their journey into thetrainline and see this

1594309933600.png


Oh great, it's only £460 instead of £644. And that's standard -- if I want first class it's £1500 - I think that includes an hour long bus service across glasgow though.


So to answer
> Many people, commuters or leisure-travellers, find the railway unreliable, uncomfortable, expensive, slow, plagued by delays and cancellations, and overall just an unpleasant experience. What is the incentive to travel by rail?



> Travelling at peak times into large cities
> Travelling at high speed (pretty much only express lines into London on trains that do 100mph+)
> Travelling into a city for a night out with alcohol (but only if the train runs late enough to get you home)

Those aren't normal behaviours, especially out of the south east. Trains in category 2 on the WCML cost about £1 a mile in standard class. Each.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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More reasons why normal people wouldn't even consider the train.


Normal people put in their journey into thetrainline and see this

View attachment 80563


Oh great, it's only £460 instead of £644. And that's standard -- if I want first class it's £1500.


So to answer
> Many people, commuters or leisure-travellers, find the railway unreliable, uncomfortable, expensive, slow, plagued by delays and cancellations, and overall just an unpleasant experience. What is the incentive to travel by rail?



> Travelling at peak times into large cities
> Travelling at high speed (pretty much only express lines into London on trains that do 100mph+)
> Travelling into a city for a night out with alcohol (but only if the train runs late enough to get you home)

Those aren't normal behaviours, especially out of the south east. Trains in category 2 on the WCML cost about £1 a mile in standard class. Each.
Oh, absolutely. It's ludicrous that sites don't suggest the purchase of a Family Railcard for such groups, or that the railways don't just eschew with the need for such Railcards and instead offer ID-based discounts (i.e. ID to show you are under 31/26/19, or over 59, etc.).

If the rail industry wants to attract groups, the disjointed group ticketing system certainly doesn't show it!
 

miami

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The rail industry doesn't seem to want to attract anyone, with the bulk of cross country prices being crazy, the costs of most local tickets for just one person being approximate to the total cost of a car - not the marginal cost, and the cost for gruops being far far higher.

(the hostile actions against people with perceived ticket irregularities probably don't turn many off)

It leaves the trains as a distress purchase - one you make when every other choice has been eliminated, with perhaps the exceptions being the London metro area and long distance journeys to city centres.
 

mmh

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Even at £300 depreciation (total) plus the maintenance already done and those annual costs over three years that's about £1,200/year plus fuel and parking.

Therefore depending on the amount on those that's still likely to be £1,500 (circa 3,000 miles and no parking) to £2,500 per year (10,000 miles plus an average of £1/day on parking).

It amuses me that despite some of us telling you we buy cheap old cars you're still talking in terms of depreciation. It's really not how people consider it. I bought my car for £400, hoping I'd get a couple of years ago. Five years later, it's proved to be one of the best cars I've had. It's cost about another £400 quid in garage bills. Depreciation is meaningless when you buy a car like that, it's a one off payment you know not to expect anything back from. You don't know how long it will last, which is until it costs more to get it through an MOT than buying another. For me that will probably be this year, it'll need a fairly big welding job according to the guy who MOTs it.

I doubt people with newer cars think of depreciation to any huge extent either - they've generally bought a nearly new car so the worst of the depreciation has already happened, or they've got a brand new one on lease.

Parking charges aren't a consideration for lots of people either. It's very rare I pay for parking - I don't have to at home or work and for most shopping trips, it's mainly on days out.
 

mmh

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Oh, absolutely. It's ludicrous that sites don't suggest the purchase of a Family Railcard for such groups, or that the railways don't just eschew with the need for such Railcards and instead offer ID-based discounts (i.e. ID to show you are under 31/26/19, or over 59, etc.).

If the rail industry wants to attract groups, the disjointed group ticketing system certainly doesn't show it!

I was massively annoyed that a TFW ticket office happily sold my visibly elderly parents two walk up returns to London without suggesting OAP or two together railcards, which would have paid for themselves in that one trip.
 

RT4038

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The rail industry doesn't seem to want to attract anyone, with the bulk of cross country prices being crazy, the costs of most local tickets for just one person being approximate to the total cost of a car - not the marginal cost, and the cost for gruops being far far higher.

(the hostile actions against people with perceived ticket irregularities probably don't turn many off)

It leaves the trains as a distress purchase - one you make when every other choice has been eliminated, with perhaps the exceptions being the London metro area and long distance journeys to city centres.

In spite of the 'bulk of cross country prices being crazy' the trains [in pre Covid times] were , according to most on this forum, always overcrowded! So what is the point of having cheaper fares to attract more passengers and the trains be even more overcrowded?
 

Inthewest

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City centre to city centre.
If visiting somewhere for the day, means I don't have to faff about with driving in a city I don't know, finding and paying for parking.
 

Inthewest

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I was massively annoyed that a TFW ticket office happily sold my visibly elderly parents two walk up returns to London without suggesting OAP or two together railcards, which would have paid for themselves in that one trip.
Perhaps they've tried to do that before and been shot down by the customer not wanting to sign up to anything.
Can't blame either party here. Too many "sign up and it's cheaper" but turns out not to be have happened in the past that people, especially older generations, don't want to sign up to anything.
 

alxndr

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Reasons I use trains over driving:
  • I can read a book, write, study, nap etc, rather than just drive
  • I don't have to be well-rested, a 5 hour journey after a night shift on a train is unpleasant but driving would be downright dangerous
  • I can leave my car on the drive so that it's less obvious that the house is unoccupied
  • The chance of getting lost is reduced as there are less decision points
  • I can move around and not arrive at my destination with an aching leg or shoulders from driving
  • Train journeys are enjoyable to me
  • I can have a drink if I wish
  • If travelling for a purpose it's more likely that I'll be able to claim the full cost of travel on expenses
  • I'm contactable
  • It is less stressful than driving and parking in urban areas or in bad weather conditions
To be honest, the only times that I opt for the car over a train is if I'm travelling somewhere that cannot be reached by train due to location or time, if a car is necessary at the other end, I'm transporting something that cannot be reasonably taken by train, or I'm travelling with someone else and they would prefer a car or the cost of 2+ tickets makes it uneconomical.
 

Starmill

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Even at £300 depreciation (total) plus the maintenance already done and those annual costs over three years that's about £1,200/year plus fuel and parking.

Therefore depending on the amount on those that's still likely to be £1,500 (circa 3,000 miles and no parking) to £2,500 per year (10,000 miles plus an average of £1/day on parking).
That sounds like a bargain to me. It's certainly a lot less than I've been spending on rail travel these past few years (bearing in mind I would usually book long-distance journeys in advance and am frequently able to use a railcard...).
 

Starmill

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Oh, absolutely. It's ludicrous that sites don't suggest the purchase of a Family Railcard for such groups, or that the railways don't just eschew with the need for such Railcards and instead offer ID-based discounts (i.e. ID to show you are under 31/26/19, or over 59, etc.).

If the rail industry wants to attract groups, the disjointed group ticketing system certainly doesn't show it!
To be fair even if you're lucky enough to be in a group that is able to use one of the railcards you have no chance of getting value for money on the same terms as driving for most long journeys.

For example, Birmingham to Newcastle would scarcely be a great journey to drive for a weekend away but it's only 3 1/2 hours so totally doable. Even if you know about the Two Together Railcard and you're happy to mess about filling in the form and paying for it your travel is still going to cost £160 (+£30).
 

The Ham

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So marginal cost of about 15p a mile?

The extra over the cost of fuel is 15p the full costs, at £2,500/10,000, is 25p a mile, however if you're doing that sort of miles in a year chances are you'll have higher maintenance costs than the £40 MOT charges for each of the following two years.

However I suspect with VED of £300 the fuel efficiency isn't going to be very good, so you'll be paying more than 10p/mile.

As an example a 40mpg car with petrol costing 105p a litter would be 12p/mile, if petrol goes back to pre lockdown prices of 130p then that rises to 15p/mile. That's then 30p/mile.

Conversely at 3,000 miles it's 50p a mile (10p/mile fuel cost).

The point being, and nothing anyone has said so far disproves it, that cars are often more expensive than people expect.

Even doing 10,000 miles a year with £100/year depression (OK a fairly high, but not crazy high instance and VED don't help the case, but even if they were lower but depression was £400/year which is still fairly low) and assuming very optimistic maintenance costs it still ended up at £2,500 a year (possibly more depending on fuel efficiency).

As such but that far off the average I've quoted of over £3,000.

Whilst doing less miles does being the cost down, the cost then isn't good value due to the cost per mile going up a LOT.

As for lease car chargers, it's fairly easy to find leases (and they will likely be limited to 6,000 or 8,000 miles before incurring extra charges) of £200/month. If you get one and leave it on your land and don't drive it or insure it that's £2,400 a year for something that looks nice.

Even with free fuel (let's say it's electric and you can charge it off your solar panels, although even that would likely have a cost associated with it) as well as servicing, VED and insurance included, at 8,000 miles that's still 30p a mile.

In reality it doesn't take a lot of extra charges for those costs to rise significantly..

Even where people don't pay parking very often it's still fairly easy for those charges to add up.

There's also other little things, such as you get the car serviced, that's miles which you are still paying for but aren't benefiting from.

You drive a mile (say) to school because it's a bit overcast and you don't want to get wet, that's still a cost which if you were doing a lot of miles by train wouldn't cost you anything as you'd walk.

You do a long journey and come off at a motorway services, you can easily added another few miles, again distances which aren't needed in your travel.

I fully understand the convince of a car, and how it allows you to do things which wouldn't be possible without it. It still boils down to the fact that often it is costing people a lot more than they think.

As for it costs me X to do this trip or that trip, unless you are doing them regularly then the high costs aren't changing your overall travel costs all that much. If you are doing it regularly then those journeys are subsiding the user of your car the rest of the time by significantly increasing your milage.

However, as has been pointed out, it might be better to hire a car for those trips and use other modes for the rest of your travel.

Likewise, comparing the cost of train travel for one stop on a train on a turn up and go ticket is always likely to show up anomalies. As to go 10 times that distance may only be 3 times the price.

That would be like comparing the cost of road travel by looking at the cost of driving all the miles in a year as if it was crossing the Thames at Dartford and ignoring the fact that whilst someone may do that fairly frequently there's a whole load of other traveling that they undertake at other times.

However even at £20 return, if a car costs £2,000 a year you could still undertake that trip twice a week for the same cost, much more than that and you may well find that a season ticket works out cheaper.

Whilst there's going to be rail/bus journeys which are impractical by anything other than car because of the layout of the networks (be that railway lines or bus routes) that's always going to be the case whilst cars are the default mode of choice.

As if public transport and cycling rates increased then there would be more routes provided, the more routes provided the easier it is for now people to use them, meaning that more routes were provided.

Unfortunately the opposite is true (and this is often where we are at), people use buses/trains/cycles infrequently, so no investment is made, meaning that it's not viable, so fewer people use them, etc.

To give you an idea of how bad things are; we'd all expect there to be less cycling undertaken than in 1950, few would have a problem with that. Traffic is worse, we can afford to run cars more easily, we have more stuff which we buy so have to carry in a car, etc.

However on the otherwise if the coin or bikes can be much lighter (and I'm thinking of £400 bikes, not the carbon fiber cost as much as a car bikes), have much better gears (can even have assistant in the form of e-bikes), there's many more long distance cycle routes, and so on and so forth. As such cycling in many ways should be easier.

Yet to get to 1/2 the average distance per person (total miles traveled divided by total population) we'd need to increase cycling by a factor of 2.4.

Why? It because so many people haven't used a bike in years (quite possibly haven't opened a bike since they were a kid), not even for a few trips a year which could easily be undertaken by bike when they aren't likely to get wet. This then means that their kids don't see cycling as a normal thing to do and so don't do it.

Kids are trained from a young age that the only way to get about is by car, as that's the way they always go to school, is to go by car. Now I understand that many have a long way to go to school, however the vast majority don't. Often the time saving from going by car isn't that much, however the cost of doing so is likely to be high.

Not necessarily in terms of money (although I'd a second car is being run almost for the sole purpose of school transport it will be) but rather in terms of how healthy the children are, in terms of pollution, in terms of disruption caused by traffic, in terms of the number of parked cars taking up space and so on.

Actually, if there were fewer cars on the roads were could remove some parking from urban areas and replace it with vegetation. This could include the planting of trees on terraced streets where there's few plants visible, with the benefits of a nicer place to live, the reduction in pollution created by the trees, an increase in wildlife habitat and a reduction in temperature during the summer by reducing solar gain by creating shade. It would also reduce flooding downstream and could also improve the quality of the storm water which does run into the sewers.

That's just one area where if we want to avoid significant problems with climate change then car ownership patterns need to change rather than just everyone switching to EV's. In the greater scheme of things they aren't that great, just look up about the impact that the mining of the minerals has on the planet.

Even just on motive emissions EV's are worse than trains. That's ALL trains, not just EMU's. The emotions per passenger per 10,000 miles for EV is 0.60 tonnes, with the potential to green the grid to improve this.

Conversely, rail, including diesel trains, when averaged over the same per person per 10,000 miles from national figures results in a figure of 0.59 tonnes, the the potential to green the grid, change to bimodal/battery/hydrogen trains, electrify more lines.

As such, and given that we're aiming for net zero, even the small difference that there currently is going to help us get closer (read not having to pay as much for carbon offsetting/carbon capture) than would be the case of we carry on using cars.

Of course even in writing the above is not a fair comparison, in that someone doing 10,000 in a car if they switched to doing the same travel by train would almost certainly not do the same miles in a year as they'll reduce their travel and walk for some of there travel.
 

yorksrob

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Even at £300 depreciation (total) plus the maintenance already done and those annual costs over three years that's about £1,200/year plus fuel and parking.

Therefore depending on the amount on those that's still likely to be £1,500 (circa 3,000 miles and no parking) to £2,500 per year (10,000 miles plus an average of £1/day on parking).
That sounds like a bargain to me. It's certainly a lot less than I've been spending on rail travel these past few years (bearing in mind I would usually book long-distance journeys in advance and am frequently able to use a railcard...).

It's interesting to see that cost of running a car articulated as up to a couple of years ago, I regularly used to tot up my rail expenditue (including my annual metrocard, which was used primarily for rail). The cost generally came out at the £2,000 - £3,000, so probably in a similar sort of ball-park.

That said, it's the faff of maintining the thing that puts me off running a car, plus the fact that I enjoy a few beers which would render the car useless for many round trips.
 

xotGD

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There are two separate debates here. The first is whether it is cost effective to own a car or not. In this case, all costs of ownership need to be considered.

The second is whether or not to use the car you already own for a specific journey. In this case only the incremental costs matter.

The two keep getting muddled up.
 

miami

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The two keep getting muddled up.

Only by some.

For many journeys it's cheaper to hire a car and drive than it is to get the train. For some journeys it's cheaper to buy a car, drive, then crush the car, than get the train.

Lets take a random journey, Norwich to Nottingham for the day, single traveller, arriving for say 11am, leaving say 4pm

Enterprise will charge you £47 for a Corsa, and another £25 in petrol for the 240 mile round trip at £1.20 a litre.

That's £67. Leave at 0730 to get to the rent-a-car for 8am.

The train costs £98, leaving the station at 0757 (and thus leaving home at 0730), back at 1930.

That's a direct train, going city centre to city centre, for 1 person. Everything is optimised for the train to easily win.

Train doesn't drop to to £75 until a 1pm arrival.

That leaves you £31 for parking in Nottingham.

The simple reality is that the cost of car ownership is less than car hire companies charge, but the train can't compete on price or speed on a simple city-centre to city-centre day trip that it happens to serve.

Now pick something more suited to car. Nottingham City Centre to the Techno Trading estate in Swindon

Train cost: £173 return Nottingham to Swindon, although if you go the fastest route it's £330. I won't bother adding the cost of a taxi in Swindon.

Rent a car cost well under £100.

Car is 2h30, train is 4 hours.
 

Purple Orange

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Many people, commuters or leisure-travellers, find the railway unreliable, uncomfortable, expensive, slow, plagued by delays and cancellations, and overall just an unpleasant experience. What is the incentive to travel by rail?

It is more reliable and easier than the car for the journeys I make. People don’t take the train because they like the train, but usually despite it. My 10 mile commute in to Manchester is slower and more expensive using a car, when you factor in petrol, parking, maintenance and service costs and likely a monthly direct debit for purchasing on finance. It is faster on the train in to London & Birmingham from Manchester than driving.
 

Purple Orange

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Only by some.

For many journeys it's cheaper to hire a car and drive than it is to get the train. For some journeys it's cheaper to buy a car, drive, then crush the car, than get the train.

Lets take a random journey, Norwich to Nottingham for the day, single traveller, arriving for say 11am, leaving say 4pm

Enterprise will charge you £47 for a Corsa, and another £25 in petrol for the 240 mile round trip at £1.20 a litre.

That's £67. Leave at 0730 to get to the rent-a-car for 8am.

The train costs £98, leaving the station at 0757 (and thus leaving home at 0730), back at 1930.

That's a direct train, going city centre to city centre, for 1 person. Everything is optimised for the train to easily win.

Train doesn't drop to to £75 until a 1pm arrival.

That leaves you £31 for parking in Nottingham.

The simple reality is that the cost of car ownership is less than car hire companies charge, but the train can't compete on price or speed on a simple city-centre to city-centre day trip that it happens to serve.

Now pick something more suited to car. Nottingham City Centre to the Techno Trading estate in Swindon

Train cost: £173 return Nottingham to Swindon, although if you go the fastest route it's £330. I won't bother adding the cost of a taxi in Swindon.

Rent a car cost well under £100.

Car is 2h30, train is 4 hours.

The issue here is one-off journeys vs regular journeys. The railways work best when catering for commuters, rather than ad-hoc journeys to Norwich with the family. This is also why more focus needs to be given to commuter rail users compared to one-off long distance users?

If you have a job where you commute in to a city centre, and you are a one-car owning family, what incentive is there for purchasing a second car for your commute? Very very little. Given the incremental cost, the congestion and the fact that the first car will more than likely be utilised for other purposes while you are in the city centre.

If you are in a small city like Nottingham or Norwich, then I can see how the car works best. But in Manchester, driving is a nightmare and you’d be mad to attempt.
 

urbophile

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The fact that most trains on most routes in most (normal) times are busy or even overcrowded, means that many people have already given positive answers to the OP. As others have pointed out on this thread, that still leaves a majority of the population for whom using their own car is a better or even the only option. Who knows what will change post-pandemic, especially how much daily commuting will still be a feature of many peoples' lives, or long distance business travel? When it all settles down, and if and when we finally have a government that is not ruled by short-term self-interest, we will be able to look at the whole picture including the needs of the environment and improvements to the infrastructure.

There are many people who travel by train but would prefer to drive, and vice versa. One of the hidden costs of driving is of course the stress on the driver; it is a skilled job and if we factored in the cost of hiring a driver to do it for us it would make even undiscounted train fares look a bargain.
 

miami

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If you are in a small city like Nottingham or Norwich, then I can see how the car works best. But in Manchester, driving is a nightmare and you’d be mad to attempt.

You live in Wimlslow, with a high speed regular train service.

I used to live just up the road in Hale Barns - 2 miles from Altrinhcam, 4 miles from Wilmslow. To get into Manchester there wasn't a choice, driving was the only reasonable means (OK maybe cycling if there were shower facilities). To go to London was a drive to Wilmslow. If I didn't have the car it was getting the bus (which cost more than parking+petrol) to the station, and a taxi back.

Same when I lived in Worsley, the 10 minute 4 mile drive to the office in Salford sure beat the 30 minute walk to Patricroft for the hourly train. Bike makes more sense than train.

As a kid growing up in Birchwood, my dad drove 20-30 minutes every day to Walkden, rather than a bus to the station, a train into Deansgate, another to Salford Crescent, another to Walkden, then a mile walk at the other end. Clearly I couldn't drive into Manchester before I was 17.

If you live close to a station, and work close to a staiton, and there's a direct train, and you work a 9-5 day 5 days a week, then the train probably makes sense. But you'll still likely own a car, meaning that for non-commute trips it becomes the train vs marginal cost of car for those none-commute journeys.
 

Purple Orange

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You live in Wimlslow, with a high speed regular train service.

I used to live just up the road in Hale Barns - 2 miles from Altrinhcam, 4 miles from Wilmslow. To get into Manchester there wasn't a choice, driving was the only reasonable means (OK maybe cycling if there were shower facilities). To go to London was a drive to Wilmslow. If I didn't have the car it was getting the bus (which cost more than parking+petrol) to the station, and a taxi back.

Same when I lived in Worsley, the 10 minute 4 mile drive to the office in Salford sure beat the 30 minute walk to Patricroft for the hourly train. Bike makes more sense than train.

As a kid growing up in Birchwood, my dad drove 20-30 minutes every day to Walkden, rather than a bus to the station, a train into Deansgate, another to Salford Crescent, another to Walkden, then a mile walk at the other end. Clearly I couldn't drive into Manchester before I was 17.

If you live close to a station, and work close to a staiton, and there's a direct train, and you work a 9-5 day 5 days a week, then the train probably makes sense. But you'll still likely own a car, meaning that for non-commute trips it becomes the train vs marginal cost of car for those none-commute journeys.

Exactly it’s all about non-commuter journeys, but let’s say the railway is tasked with reducing car usage. I would argue the railway would have more of an impact by attracting people out of their cars for a regular commute than attracting people out of their cars for one-off journeys.

Despite living close to a station, my family and I will usually use the car still for many journeys because the train simply doesn’t go there, or we are transporting a lot of paraphernalia. Meaning it is circumstantial as to whether a car is more beneficial or not.
 

M!T

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I'm sure there's a thread in the Fares section about how expensive the rail tickets to the South West are...
I went to Cornwall by train back in 2003 and 2004. First year I went direct and it cost a fortune. Next time I went via London and it only cost about half as much, thanks to both GNER (as it were) and FGW doing much better advance purchase deals than Virgin. Also, it meant my journey consisted of a combination IC225s and HSTs, both a much nicer place to be than the relentlessly noisy Voyagers of the previous year. Actually, in 2003 we did have to change at Exeter and, having gone that far on a Voyager, subsequently boarding an HST can only be likened to stepping out of a brand new 1 litre hatchback and into a 30 year old Rolls Royce! I guess the way to do it these days would be an XC HST from Leeds to Exeter or Plymouth and then hope you get lucky and bag yourself a GW "Castle" HST for the remainder of the journey.
 

yorksrob

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I went to Cornwall by train back in 2003 and 2004. First year I went direct and it cost a fortune. Next time I went via London and it only cost about half as much, thanks to both GNER (as it were) and FGW doing much better advance purchase deals than Virgin. Also, it meant my journey consisted of a combination IC225s and HSTs, both a much nicer place to be than the relentlessly noisy Voyagers of the previous year. Actually, in 2003 we did have to change at Exeter and, having gone that far on a Voyager, subsequently boarding an HST can only be likened to stepping out of a brand new 1 litre hatchback and into a 30 year old Rolls Royce! I guess the way to do it these days would be an XC HST from Leeds to Exeter or Plymouth and then hope you get lucky and bag yourself a GW "Castle" HST for the remainder of the journey.

For the past few years I've been getting a 159 from Waterloo to Exeter then catching the HST onwards to Penzance - a very pleasent and leisurely journey (so long as overly crowded trains are avoided !).
 

The Ham

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There are two separate debates here. The first is whether it is cost effective to own a car or not. In this case, all costs of ownership need to be considered.

The second is whether or not to use the car you already own for a specific journey. In this case only the incremental costs matter.

The two keep getting muddled up.

That's only true to a point though, in that if the only reason that car ownership is justified is down to the fact that not all the costs have been considered.

Without knowing the true cost of car ownership people are more prone to own a car then the costs would otherwise suggest.

Also whilst car hire could be an option for some trips, if it's one way (or a long time between trips) then the extra costs soon mount up. It also depends on your proximity to the location of the car hire, as travel to/from can add time to the journey. Also for an early start/late finish (which can be as early as 17:00) that can add an extra day of car hire charges, and I certainly wouldn't wish to pay the excess if there was an incident whilst driving the vehicle.

Rail should certainly be doing a lot more to be more attractive, however part of the problem is that for much of the network we are running out of capacity.

If XC had a few more full length trains, so as to provide quite a few more full length services then they could offer more reduced price tickets. Even if those tickets were (say) 2/3 the cost of the full price tickets.

However, even planning one week out can make a difference, for instance Norwich to Nottingham on Wednesday is £69, putting it on a par with the car hire option.
 

Starmill

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However, even planning one week out can make a difference, for instance Norwich to Nottingham on Wednesday is £69, putting it on a par with the car hire option.
I'm confused as to where that fare quote has come from.
 
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