What is really happening with East West Rail (EWR) between Bedford and Cambridge

[The Planner]

I can't believe that the size of those 2 places is disproportionate to MKC and Bedford, Northampton and Bedford, MKC and Northampton etc. I believe that if such a service existed and it was good, people would use the service daily.

Again, if there is such a market, why isn't in the local area transport plans and aspirations or in a NR route study or previous RUS? Is there any organisation actually pushing for this or campaigning? You could say that about any link between decent sized towns, it doesn't mean they get their railway built.

 

[richieb1971]

This is true. But there is never going to be a campaign for opening a railway. The only reason why HS1 exists is because our side of the channel had a shocking service using pre existing lines. So what we need is the country to grind to a stand still on the roads. The roads need to offer a shocking service.

So we will need to suffer a severe headache before it can be alleviated by other means.

You would think 18 miles of track is impossible to build. The contours of the land are already etched the old track.

Anyway, back onto EWR and what they are planning as thats still going ahead and is still quite exciting.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Again, if there is such a market, why isn't in the local area transport plans and aspirations or in a NR route study or previous RUS? Is there any organisation actually pushing for this or campaigning? You could say that about any link between decent sized towns, it doesn't mean they get their railway built.

Councils just don't have the funds to re-open railways particularly with 40% budget cuts in recent yeats.

Not to mention that many councils are anti-rail / pro road. The Nottingham tram extension came under threat when the Tories took control of Notts County Council and withdrew their funding contribution.

 

[sammorris]

2 years ago I went to Basingstoke and spent a day there. A 2 car unit from Reading went back and forth all day long. And it was PACKED each and every time. I even filmed it I was so gob smacked.

I believe that if such a service existed and it was good, people would use the service daily.

I agree that it would be used, more-or-less as Basingstoke-Reading is, although without the same long distance traffic potential, other than perhaps a service from Birmingham to Luton Airport. I do think some people on here underestimate the size of Northampton, operating on the assumption that it's a small rural town when it's really quite big. It would surely make more economic sense than the Borders Railway, which is being built (albeit for political reasons).

But how long would the profits from that packed two car Basingstoke-Reading unit take to pay for the reconstruction of the railway it runs on? I think the answer is a very, very long time.

It is very expensive to build a railway, and unlike in Scotland, we're dealing with a government which is instinctively hostile to rail construction, and unlikely to take a long term bet on a railway which would probably take years (in the absence of established Northampton-Bedford commuting patterns) to build up a user base.

 

[richieb1971]

Well cost comes up again. And again I feel railways are too expensive to produce in their current form of development.

When other countries build 200mph+ railways the cost doesn't seem to matter as much as getting it done for the greater good. Partly because they do it for a fraction of the cost and the people are genuinely welcoming all improvements to their country.

 

[muddythefish]

Again, if there is such a market, why isn't in the local area transport plans and aspirations or in a NR route study or previous RUS? Is there any organisation actually pushing for this or campaigning? You could say that about any link between decent sized towns, it doesn't mean they get their railway built.

Isn't this a fault of transport policy in this country - ie, roads improvements are proposed and planned at local level whereas railway developments come from Whitehall ? I remember the frustration in an interview of the Lancashire CC transport chief of his inability to take forward railway projects.

All I would say about the Northampton area is you have a Conservative administartion that has never shown any interest in railways and public transport in general.

The difference is a town of Northampton's size and importance in Germany or France would unlikely to have lost its feeder branch lines in the first place or would certainly be looking at rebuilding them now. A German or French Northampton would also probably have a tram system too.

 

[The Planner]

But those decisions are normally taken with input from RUS/Route Studies which various parties all have a say in?

 

[Bald Rick]

Well cost comes up again. And again I feel railways are too expensive to produce in their current form of development.

When other countries build 200mph+ railways the cost doesn't seem to matter as much as getting it done for the greater good. Partly because they do it for a fraction of the cost and the people are genuinely welcoming all improvements to their country.

Take a trip down the A62 from Bordeaux, and you'll see how welcoming the people are at the prospect of the proposed LGV.

 

[Class 170101]

I wouldn't say I want a Luton-Stevenage link - I want an East-West route, but realistically unless it can be sold as a "high speed airport link" or similar, politicians are just not going to be interested. I would see the ideal route as Bedford to St Neots, entering Cambridge from the north, more-or-less as mr_jrt has suggested on here (although it would mean freight having to reverse to reach Felixstowe). But I just can't see such a route being supported, given the likely cost and lack of airport connections.

Most of the Freight is likely to use F2N and this scheme is not reliant on East West Rail. Reversing freight trains is not really practical and you only have to see why Ipswich Chord was built to see why.

 

[sammorris]

Most of the Freight is likely to use F2N and this scheme is not reliant on East West Rail. Reversing freight trains is not really practical and you only have to see why Ipswich Chord was built to see why.

I would have thought East-West rail might still serve a purpose in providing an 'avoiding London' route for freight headed for the GWML, although admittedly I'm not an expert and have no idea how much freight heads that way currently...

 

[richieb1971]

In a world of speculation there is a Bristol Felixstowe run which might use the EWR (or potentially use it if other routes were out of action). Anything from Oxford way and potentially quite a lot could take this route. Lets not forget the EWR is going to be electrified, not sure if F2N is going to be or not..

6H10 already uses it.

I think there is great potential for a freight terminal at Stewartby.

https://vimeo.com/128032346

But instead of using already existing industrial land they want to take a nice piece of green belt land and completely ruin it. (Sundon, Radlett)

Would be nice if they could turn Stewartby back into green belt land if they are not going to use it for industrial purposes.

 

[DarloRich]

In a world of speculation there is a Bristol Felixstowe run which might use the EWR (or potentially use it if other routes were out of action). Anything from Oxford way and potentially quite a lot could take this route. Lets not forget the EWR is going to be electrified, not sure if F2N is going to be or not..

6H10 already uses it.

I think there is great potential for a freight terminal at Stewartby.

https://vimeo.com/128032346

But instead of using already existing industrial land they want to take a nice piece of green belt land and completely ruin it. (Sundon, Radlett)

Would be nice if they could turn Stewartby back into green belt land if they are not going to use it for industrial purposes.

Just give it up please! :roll: Most of the land at Stewartby is earmarked for commercial/residential use. There is more to this than just looking at maps and drawing nice shapes!

 

[A0wen]

Isn't this a fault of transport policy in this country - ie, roads improvements are proposed and planned at local level whereas railway developments come from Whitehall ? I remember the frustration in an interview of the Lancashire CC transport chief of his inability to take forward railway projects.

All I would say about the Northampton area is you have a Conservative administartion that has never shown any interest in railways and public transport in general.

The difference is a town of Northampton's size and importance in Germany or France would unlikely to have lost its feeder branch lines in the first place or would certainly be looking at rebuilding them now. A German or French Northampton would also probably have a tram system too.

Who is running NCC is irrelevant -

Throughout the 80s it was NOC, and the 90s it was Labour controlled - yet there were no rail re-openings or campaigns. In fact the A43 dualling, which took parts of the trackbed from Northampton - Towcester happened under Labour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northamptonshire_County_Council

To claim Labour = pro rail / public transport, Tory = anti is simply wrong.

All local authorities look more widely at the needs of their areas.

Northamptonshire is largely rural with two or three large population centres, which funnily enough all have rail stations.

The next 'level' of places such as Brackley, Thrapston or Daventry all lost their rail links many, many years ago with little or no prospect of their reinstatement - and certainly not within the budget of the County Council.

As for the claim about 'a French or German' equivalent to Northampton would never have lost such links - rubbish. There is a rose-tinted view of public transport in Europe on these boards - yet take a look at the rail services in rural France - they are generally less frequent than the UK and often bus substituted.

 

[Class 170101]

I would have thought East-West rail might still serve a purpose in providing an 'avoiding London' route for freight headed for the GWML, although admittedly I'm not an expert and have no idea how much freight heads that way currently...

Newmarket Tunnel is a major restriction on this route, its not W10 cleared.

 

[richieb1971]

Just give it up please! :roll: Most of the land at Stewartby is earmarked for commercial/residential use. There is more to this than just looking at maps and drawing nice shapes!

Don't know what your on about Rich. I said nothing about drawing shapes or looking at maps. The issue is more to do with where the least protesting is likely to be had and its not at Sundon or Radlett. Do people want to live under huge chimneys then? They are protected by the government, I don't think I would want to live under 200ft chimneys.

Anyway, 99% of the talk on here is about what people want and 110% of people saying "It ain't never gonna happen". So your not saying anything that isn't in the context of just about everything else said on here and neither am I.

 

[Abpj17]

So its now or never really.

The London runway debate demonstrates that isn't how transport planning works in this country.

I'm still attracted (only only slightly biased) for the via Luton option. While it is a longer route between Oxford and Cambridge - it's less than the via London rat run; and would provide good airport access for Oxford, MK and Cambridge - three major centres than in any sane world would have good airport links via public transport.

Then we just need another runway each for Heathrow, Gatwick and Luton...

 

[A0wen]

The London runway debate demonstrates that isn't how transport planning works in this country.

I'm still attracted (only only slightly biased) for the via Luton option. While it is a longer route between Oxford and Cambridge - it's less than the via London rat run; and would provide good airport access for Oxford, MK and Cambridge - three major centres than in any sane world would have good airport links via public transport.

Then we just need another runway each for Heathrow, Gatwick and Luton...

What are you on about?

All three of those places have good airport connections by public transport though:

Cambridge has direct trains to Stansted and London City (DLR from Stratford).

MK has direct trains to Birmingham, 1 train change to Gatwick and regular Nat Express to Heathrow and a regular coach to Luton.

Oxford - has direct trains to Birmingham and alot of coaches to Heathrow via the M40.

To claim those three places don't have decent connections to airports shows you really haven't looked at the connections they do have.

 

[richieb1971]

He wants a railway to join the airports mate. Different thing.

 

[A0wen]

He wants a railway to join the airports mate. Different thing.

Not what he said.

" three major centres than in any sane world would have good airport links via public transport."

And I've proven that all three have decent public transport connections to at least one and often more than one 'key' airport.

There is no point in the railways "joining" the airports - oddly enough people don't usually travel between airports.

And I'm not your "mate".

 

[richieb1971]

Ah, I thought you were a nice person. The term "mate" is generally used as means to sound nice. Obviously that doesn't work on you.

 

[DarloRich]

Don't know what your on about Rich. I said nothing about drawing shapes or looking at maps. The issue is more to do with where the least protesting is likely to be had and its not at Sundon or Radlett. Do people want to live under huge chimneys then? They are protected by the government, I don't think I would want to live under 200ft chimneys.

Anyway, 99% of the talk on here is about what people want and 110% of people saying "It ain't never gonna happen". So your not saying anything that isn't in the context of just about everything else said on here and neither am I.

The good people of Stewartby have been living under those chimneys since 1926 and it hasn't done them much harm. Mind seeing as the London Brick works built the village they perhaps didn't get a choice!

There are several problems with Stewartby as a container/freight terminal straight away:

1) Trains from the south cant access the branch at Bedford without a reversal
2) You cant go north from the branch via the WCML without a reversal
3) I doubt track capacity exists to allow these reversals
4) The road network at Stewartby is rural and would need lots of upgrading with a new junction to the A421
5) it is in the middle of nowhere so all staff have to commute in and all the goods have to be transported longer distances driving up the price
6) DIRFT isn't far away up the M1 and has much better road and rail links

 

[richieb1971]

4 and 5 I agree with to some degree, the rest I do not.

Any train going north would go MML and any train going south would go WCML. There is absolutely no point in reversing. Trains going north can go either direction at Leicester.

I would imagine a new depot would force commuters no matter where it is. I don't believe for a second that all the workforce will come from local communities.

I understand your logic and why you believe it shouldn't be at Stewartby. But I would like those sidings and that land to be put to better use than what it is today. I don't want it to be a housing estate because it won't look right. Sundon to Stewartby is about 10-15 miles maximum. So your argument on that is somewhat in the grey area as well since it is also in the middle of nowhere and is almost the exact same commute. The biggest difference is that Sundon is nice green belt land and Stewartby is already industrial land sitting idle.


And please be nice in your reply. We may not have similar beliefs but there is no need for rolling eyes. Whatever goes into Stewartby I hope its better than a crap pit or incinerator.

 

[The Planner]

4 and 5 I agree with to some degree, the rest I do not.

Any train going north would go MML and any train going south would go WCML. There is absolutely no point in reversing. Trains going north can go either direction at Leicester.

North to where though? There aren't any heavy Intermodal flows currently that could use the MML.

 

[richieb1971]

If the original plan is to put a Sundon or Radlett depot, where would they go from there?

I have no idea.. but they are going somewhere from there.

 

[The Planner]

Unless it is a case where the rail connection is required for planning permission and they have no plans whatsoever for rail transport. Has a train actually gone into or out of Castle Donnington yet?

 

[muddythefish]

Unless it is a case where the rail connection is required for planning permission and they have no plans whatsoever for rail transport. Has a train actually gone into or out of Castle Donnington yet?

So you're saying planning permission is granted for these sites on the bogus premise that they will use railfreight but have in fact no intention of ever doing so ?

 

[The Planner]

I would not be surprised in the least if that occurred, call it a loss leader or similar to a section 106.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Unless it is a case where the rail connection is required for planning permission and they have no plans whatsoever for rail transport. Has a train actually gone into or out of Castle Donnington yet?

Or the other Donnington freight terminal (Telford)?
That's only had a handful of services I believe.
(Only one n in Castle Donington I think).

 

[snowball]

Or the other Donnington freight terminal (Telford)?
That's only had a handful of services I believe.
(Only one n in Castle Donington I think).

Two actually - not three as in #145.

The important thing to remember about Alfred Russel Wallace is that he only has four Ls.

 

[muddythefish]

I would not be surprised in the least if that occurred, call it a loss leader or similar to a section 106.

Why haven't the Rail Freight Group and rail freight operators blown the whistle on this ?