What is really happening with East West Rail (EWR) between Bedford and Cambridge

[mr_jrt]

You seem to have missed the bit where I said that if East West went via Hitchin - which would inevitably mean a major revamp of the station - then ECML operators might very well favour it over Stevenage as a place to stop, which was of course the case before Stevenage new town was built. With the profusion of Thameslink trains planned for the future it's not as if people travelling to/from Stevenage would have long to wait for a connection. Thus serving 150,000 people, whereas St Neots would serve, well, St Neots.

Whilst you're quite correct about the historical arrangements, I sincerely doubt mainline express operators would omit stops at Stevenage. One only has to look across to the WCML to see exactly what will happen. Remind me, how many Virgin West Coast services stop at Bletchley?

The problem with things as they are likely to end up is that they change a 3 leg trip (i.e. Watford - Bletchley - St Neots - Peterborough) into a 5 leg trip (i.e. Watford - Milton Keynes - Bletchley - Hitchin - Stevenage - Peterborough), and even that's arguably too many. Yes, you can reduce it back down to a 3 leg trip on the slower services, but you'll be on the slow stopping services which will take a lot longer to cover the distance, making things uncompetitive with going via London, or worse, by road.

 

[D365]

Why will you need to change from Hitchin to an EC train at Stevenage? There's only a limited number of those stopping, in comparison I see plenty of passengers travelling end-to-end on GN. From Hitchin (changing from EWR) to Peterborough won't be slower on GN/Thameslink. AND it's far cheaper on the fare.

Although in saying that, this does lead me to wonder... If EWR/electrification will extend to Cambridge, whether the diversion/extension of a few Bedford Thameslink services to Peterborough will be possible.

 

[A0wen]

Although in saying that, this does lead me to wonder... If EWR/electrification will extend to Cambridge, whether the diversion/extension of a few Bedford Thameslink services to Peterborough will be possible.

For what possible purpose?

I've seen some pretty daft suggestions around here (including the argument to reopen Northampton - Bedford in order to provide a circular service along EWR) and this one seems to be up there with that.

Such services would probably need to reverse at Bedford - the 'passenger flows' are unlikely to be significant - I can't see that many people wanting a Luton / St Albans - Peterborough direct link. And it would take up capacity on the ECML which would be better used with additional KX services.

The only likely (or obvious) extension to the Thameslink services is to Kettering and Corby once they're wired. Anything else is a distraction.

 

[jimm]

Whilst you're quite correct about the historical arrangements, I sincerely doubt mainline express operators would omit stops at Stevenage. One only has to look across to the WCML to see exactly what will happen. Remind me, how many Virgin West Coast services stop at Bletchley?

The problem with things as they are likely to end up is that they change a 3 leg trip (i.e. Watford - Bletchley - St Neots - Peterborough) into a 5 leg trip (i.e. Watford - Milton Keynes - Bletchley - Hitchin - Stevenage - Peterborough), and even that's arguably too many. Yes, you can reduce it back down to a 3 leg trip on the slower services, but you'll be on the slow stopping services which will take a lot longer to cover the distance, making things uncompetitive with going via London, or worse, by road.

All depends on what options are available and at the moment Stevenage is clearly the better place to call. If East West was at Hitchin, that may change how TOCs look at the situation.

One thing is clear - East West won't be at St Neots.

And I seriously doubt Watford to Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth/Cambridge/Peterborough is a key target market in the minds of the people planning East West, given that the current via London/drive to an ECML station rail options or road options using the M25, A1M and M11 are rather more obvious than a rail journey via Bletchley and Bedford - whenever that becomes possible. And why would someone go via MK Central when there are plenty of LM trains between Watford and Bletchley with a journey time just over 30 minutes?

 

[ainsworth74]

If East West was at Hitchin, that may change how TOCs look at the situation.

Agreed. If EWR ends up interchanging at Hitchin I could definetly see VTEC (and possibly the OAOs) wanting to call there rather than Stevenage.

 

[A0wen]

Agreed. If EWR ends up interchanging at Hitchin I could definetly see VTEC (and possibly the OAOs) wanting to call there rather than Stevenage.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this.

Whilst EWR opens up some journey opportunities - people travelling to Cambridge from Peterboro or further north will probably have changed at Peterboro onto Cambridge services there.

That then raises the question about west-bound connections - which I'll take in turn

- MML between Leicester & Luton. OK, people travelling from Peterboro will benefit as the alternative is to travel via London or Oakham / Leicester, but they'll be able to use TSGN services to Sandy / Hitchin. People from further north will probably be better of continuing to head to Nottingham from Grantham or Newark and using Nottingham - St P services.

- WCML. Again, people from Peterboro will benefit, but again TSGN services would be the obvious way to get to Hitchin or Sandy. Others will probably find travel via Nottingham / Leicester faster.

- Oxford & the west. From York northwards there are XC services which serve Oxford directly. That leaves York - Peterborough - again heading for Birmingham / Tamworth will probably work better for many such travellers.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Agreed. If EWR ends up interchanging at Hitchin I could definetly see VTEC (and possibly the OAOs) wanting to call there rather than Stevenage.

The GN used to use Hitchin as the "north London pick up/set down" station until about, er.... 1963 or so, I'd guess.

I don't think it actually was a pick up/set down stop in those days (ie pax were not so restricted), and I think not so many Inter-city trains actually stopped there, but that was its purpose, IYSWIM

It then changed to Stevenage, which was bigger and had more platforms.

 

[A0wen]

The GN used to use Hitchin as the "north London pick up/set down" station until about, er.... 1963 or so, I'd guess.

I don't think it actually was a pick up/set down stop in those days (ie pax were not so restricted), and I think not so many Inter-city trains actually stopped there, but that was its purpose, IYSWIM

It then changed to Stevenage, which was bigger and had more platforms.

I believe there were several long-distance stop points then - Hitchin was one, Stevenage (old station) was another. Also Huntingdon and I think WGC were also used in this way.

Stevenage (new) station meant the stops at WGC and Hitchin ceased for longer distance services. I'm fairly sure Huntingdon retained some longer-distance stops until electrification at which point Peterboro became the default.

 

[mr_jrt]

I believe there were several long-distance stop points then - Hitchin was one, Stevenage (old station) was another. Also Huntingdon and I think WGC were also used in this way.

Stevenage (new) station meant the stops at WGC and Hitchin ceased for longer distance services. I'm fairly sure Huntingdon retained some longer-distance stops until electrification at which point Peterboro became the default.

WGC made sense is it used to feature the branches to Hertford and Luton/Leighton Buzzard, and Huntingdon used to make sense as it had the branches to Cambridge and Kettering. When those lines closed the stops ceased to be of use I guess...and of course, Hitchin's stops (from the branches to Cambridge and Bedford) were dragged south by the massive development at Stevenage (and I'm sure the Hertford loop helped the case too).

 

[richieb1971]

Surprised nobody is talking of Bedford here.

Whilst Cambridge and the route itself is important, so is Bedford and how the route will interact with it.

Does anyone know what Bedford south and Bedford Central means?

 

[A0wen]

WGC made sense is it used to feature the branches to Hertford and Luton/Leighton Buzzard, and Huntingdon used to make sense as it had the branches to Cambridge and Kettering. When those lines closed the stops ceased to be of use I guess...and of course, Hitchin's stops (from the branches to Cambridge and Bedford) were dragged south by the massive development at Stevenage (and I'm sure the Hertford loop helped the case too).

I think you're overplaying the importance of the branches from WGC.

The Hertford branch only ever had infrequent services and passenger services ceased in the early 50s. The Luton / Dunstable line (note services from WGC didn't run beyond Dunstable) were slightly more frequent, but lightly used - the problem being it didn't really have any large intermediate stations - Ayot and Wheathampstead were, and still are, villages. Harpenden is smaller than WGC and the Luton line station was very much the second station and sited well away from the town centre.

I think Huntingdon's was more that it was to maintain sensible journey times to London, which the DMU shuttles between Hitchin & Huntingdon didn't offer. Once electrification arrived, that issue went away.

 

[mr_jrt]

Surprised nobody is talking of Bedford here.

Whilst Cambridge and the route itself is important, so is Bedford and how the route will interact with it.

Does anyone know what Bedford south and Bedford Central means?

The problem with any route that doesn't feature Bedford Midland is that you won't have an interchange with the MML expresses, duplicating the issue we're discussing on the ECML and WCML - VTWC want to serve Milton Keynes, not Bletchley, and VTEC want to serve Stevenage, not Hitchin. Likewise, EMT want to serve Bedford (Midland), not a parkway on the outskirts where the lines cross, and probably where any future "Bedford South" station would be constructed.

Bedford Central is probably just a modern future name for Bedford (Midland), and if the EWR line does end up reusing one of the former routes to Sandy or Hitchin then odds are St Johns might end up back on its original site, giving Bedford 3 stations - Central, South, and St Johns (or East?) - far from ideal.

...kinda why I think the northern route via St Neots is superior, IMHO, given it'll all effectively be new build anyway.

 

[D365]

For what possible purpose?

My thinking was merely that by diverting some or all of the Peterborough semi-fasts through a replacement service via Bedford (depending on whether MML to EWR (south to east) will require a reversal) that it might release capacity on the ECML south of Hitchin where train paths are more critical. The new and direct connections made would be a bonus but they wouldn't be the driving factor.

 

[sammorris]

I'm not sure I agree with you on this.

Whilst EWR opens up some journey opportunities - people travelling to Cambridge from Peterboro or further north will probably have changed at Peterboro onto Cambridge services there.

And that's a key point. I think there's a bit too much of a focus here on interchange for fast services to the north - which in many (but not all) cases are not that big a deal because you can already use the existing east-west links further north.

Passengers to/from southern MML stations would be the most likely to want those connections - but as you say they don't need dedicated express EWR services for the short hop to the ECML or WCML. Just as there are likely to be MK-Aylesbury trains on the western section, there's no reason a local Bedford-Stevenage train couldn't be provided even if the end-to-end EWR expresses passed through neither station.

In fact, a long distance express EWR service is probably not going to be the major use of the line, although it would be a big deal for East Anglia (and potentially Felixstowe freight avoiding London might use the full length of the new line too)... it'll more likely be a series of overlapping regional services joining from/to other lines.

 

[A0wen]

My thinking was merely that by diverting some or all of the Peterborough semi-fasts through a replacement service via Bedford (depending on whether MML to EWR (south to east) will require a reversal) that it might release capacity on the ECML south of Hitchin where train paths are more critical. The new and direct connections made would be a bonus but they wouldn't be the driving factor.

But won't help the MML in any way, shape or form by adding journey times and unit needs to the Thameslink. And extending TL services would be better done by running them to Corby.

Yes the ECML has a capacity problem south of Hitchin, but adding to TL which is already at or near capacity is not the solution.

Far better to ensure all GN services are 8/12 car to begin with.

 

[jimm]

And that's a key point. I think there's a bit too much of a focus here on interchange for fast services to the north - which in many (but not all) cases are not that big a deal because you can already use the existing east-west links further north.

Passengers to/from southern MML stations would be the most likely to want those connections - but as you say they don't need dedicated express EWR services for the short hop to the ECML or WCML. Just as there are likely to be MK-Aylesbury trains on the western section, there's no reason a local Bedford-Stevenage train couldn't be provided even if the end-to-end EWR expresses passed through neither station.

In fact, a long distance express EWR service is probably not going to be the major use of the line, although it would be a big deal for East Anglia (and potentially Felixstowe freight avoiding London might use the full length of the new line too)... it'll more likely be a series of overlapping regional services joining from/to other lines.

I think you might be surprised by the likely level of passenger traffic going the full distance between Oxford and Cambridge for university/tech firms-type reasons, plus getting to Stansted airport from the likes of Oxford and MK is nigh on impossible right now without trekking through London or braving the M25, so it could also be a driver of traffic, especially if the airport branch and station are improved to take more trains, allowing it to become one of the potential 'beyond Cambridge' destinations for East West trains.

I doubt much freight will make the full run from East Anglia to Oxford, bar perhaps the Bristol Freightliner service, assuming that is still running by the time the route is completed. Most of the Felixstowe container services are going to and from the WestMidlands or points further north, so the Peterborough-Leicester-Nuneaton route makes far more sense for them. But East-West will provide a useful diversionary route to reach the MML and WCML if the other way is unavailable.

 

[70014IronDuke]

WGC made sense is it used to feature the branches to Hertford and Luton/Leighton Buzzard, and Huntingdon used to make sense as it had the branches to Cambridge and Kettering. When those lines closed the stops ceased to be of use I guess...and of course, Hitchin's stops (from the branches to Cambridge and Bedford) were dragged south by the massive development at Stevenage (and I'm sure the Hertford loop helped the case too).

I don't know about trains to Cambridge, but there were, I think, three trains to Kettering a day from Huntingdon. So the interchange traffic would be zilch. Maybe the odd passenger to or from Kimbolton.

Similar with Hitchin for Bedford. I doubt many passengers changed to go to Henlow. Today would be different, if such lines were open, of course.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe there were several long-distance stop points then - Hitchin was one, Stevenage (old station) was another. Also Huntingdon and I think WGC were also used in this way.

Stevenage (new) station meant the stops at WGC and Hitchin ceased for longer distance services. I'm fairly sure Huntingdon retained some longer-distance stops until electrification at which point Peterboro became the default.

Are you sure about Stenage old station? I specifically remember reading in an MR at the time something like "with the opening of Stevenage new station, all express trains formerly stopping at Hitchin will transfer to Stevenage" but can't remember any mention of the old station (although I suppose it would be understood).

Huntingdon was not then really an outer suburban pick up point. As someone else has mentioned, it was a stop in itself. In the early 1960s the local services around there were appalling. Apart from a couple of commuter trains up in the early morning, and back in the eveniing, it was a 2 x 2 car Cravens set trundling up and down the main line every 4 ? hours most of the time. The Bedfor - Cambridge branch had more trains at Sandy than the main line.

And yes, Huntingdon was an Inter-City station up to electrification, with Leeds (?) semi-fasts stopping there. With electrification, it suffered the same fate as St Albans on the Midland.

 

[A0wen]

Are you sure about Stenage old station? I specifically remember reading in an MR at the time something like "with the opening of Stevenage new station, all express trains formerly stopping at Hitchin will transfer to Stevenage" but can't remember any mention of the old station (although I suppose it would be understood).

I'm pretty sure there are pictures in the Kings Cross Suburban 1950s-1980s (can't remember the full title, but it's an Ian Allan one) has pictures of a couple of expresses stopping at the old Stevenage station.

When I get time, I'll also have a dig through my uncle's photo collection I now have in my possession - since he took loads of pictures on the ECML in Herts from the 50s through to the end of steam.

 

[stut]

Also worth remembering that Huntingdon, while not a new town, was a designated London Overspill town (in the same category as Basingstoke and Braintree). That deliberate expansion may well have had something to do with decisions about rail services.