What is so bad about a Pacer?

[ryan125hst]

I travelled from Retford to Meadowhall and back on Wednesday, a total journey time of about two hours. I have to be honest, I am now wondering why there are so many complaints about the Pacers.

I agree that they aren't the best trains in the world, but I found them perfectly acceptable- and I had to stand for entire outward journey!

I have been on Pacers before, but the last time was almost two years ago, and with all the hatred online I have got into the habit of seeing them in a negative light. However, I didn't find the ride too bad. Granted, the train did rock around a bit over points, but so do HST's at 125! And yes, most of the track seems to have been relaid recently, so there was only a small amount of jointed track. But both Pacers had proper seats (but while comfy, they seemed small- I believe they were new). Unlike a bus, they also have toilets, so are fine for longer journeys (I had to stand next to it- I see what people mean by the locker sized door!)

All in all, it was a pleasant journey. I'm sure that on rougher track or sharper curves, or a longer journey, I might have a different opinion, but I was pleasantly surprised. We should be thankful they exist really, as many branch lines might be closed without them.

Your thoughts?

Ryan

 

[Peter Mugridge]

My thoughts? I actually enjoy the way they bounce about on jointed track and I find the original bus style seating much more comfortable than the present bucket style individual seats...

 

[fireftrm]

The bouncing is certainly a pleasure, as are the hard, dig in your shoulders, upright bus seating on some. The noise, lack of ventilation in summer, horrendous draughts and (if you are really lucky to get one of the roof mounted heater beasts) complete lack of hearing in winter make them unmissable.

In totally honesty though, to answer your question - everything.

 

[ash39]

Noisy, slow, no carpets, no vestibules so the doors are in the actual carriage. Just feel like your on a bus. Northern 144's are particularly bad, I was on one yesterday and the refurb has made them even worse than they originally were, no legroom at all.

However they are better than no service at all, and probably saved a lot of lines from closing.

When they are eventually replaced, they need something like a lightweight, 75mph clas 158.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They're not terrible- certainly better than bustitution. The problem really is that they ride rather roughly over points and on jointed track, but as they are considered the worst of the available stock they tend to get shoved onto services where jointed track is more common. On CWR they're not any worse than a 150 and at least let plenty of daylight in! That said, a 144 is far preferable to a 142 of any variety. They're not so bad in summer at least, though during cold weather the draughts from the bus-doors feels like it'd make the teeth rattle!

To be totally honest, I kinda miss the 141s for nostalgic reasons even though they were pretty ropey...

 

[gnolife]

I find that the biggest problems with pacers are the length of them - they're significantly shorter than most other trains (153s and 139s excluded), meaning that on commuter services out of Manchester and Leeds they get packed out far too easily. The other problem is Deansgate Junction in Timperley - it is the single, most horrible place for screeching around a bend. I find that the bus benches on most of them to be a major plus point for them - I tend to travel at stupid o'clock in the morning, or stupid o'clock at night, so I can just lie down on them and sleep, which is much better for me than on, say, a 185, where the hard edges of the seats keep me awake

 

[Greenback]

I prefer the Pacers to 153's, but maybe that's because I have more chance of getting a seat on the 1735 Swansea to Carmarthen if it is formed of one of the former as opposed to one fo the latter!

The worst thing about them is the door configuration. I quite enjoy the bumpy ride!

 

[yorksrob]

Lack of room - the 2 car examples aren't big enough for a lot of routes (hence the OP's having to stand half the way), no tables to put anything (trying to put sugar in and remove a teabag on one is an experience) lack of facing seating bays on some and rubbish seats on some.

 

[Greenback]

Lack of room - the 2 car examples aren't big enough for a lot of routes (hence the OP's having to stand half the way), no tables to put anything (trying to put sugar in and remove a teabag on one is an experience) lack of facing seating bays on some and rubbish seats on some.

Indeed, they are not suitable for long journeys in my view. Though I am more than happy for a 20 minute journey!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A run on a cold winters day in an ex-Merseyrail Class 142 unit that entails travelling over jointed track would be most certainly the ultimate in the annals of "horrors of rail travel".

 

[37372]

They were acceptable in the 80s, but not today. The "toilet" is basically a broom cupboard! If you're any bigger than average size and wanting to use it, you're in for a bad time. Having had to endure pacers for many years I don't see many good points about them. The doors on them just seem so flimsy! One was practically disabled by a rogue bog roll yesterday which found itself jammed behind the door. Having still got the squealing of 142020 ringing in my ears as it rounded the bends at Newcastle yesterday... Just no.

 

[M60lad]

The speed on some of Northern's Pacers isn't too bad in my opinion, I was on one of the old First Great Western ones the other week from Sheffield-Manchester Piccadilly which was picking up speed no problems infact going through Cowburn Tunnel we must have been doing at least 60-70mph easilly in the bit that drops down in the tunnel, I wonder whether the driver just let role down the hill before applying power again

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair to them, their toilets are in a better condition than those on many 158's.

 

[pemma]

I travelled from Retford to Meadowhall and back on Wednesday, a total journey time of about two hours. I have to be honest, I am now wondering why there are so many complaints about the Pacers.

What type of Pacer did you travel on and what seating did it have? The 144s provide a better ride than the 142s. The Merseytravel 142s have high density poor seating crammed in and provide limited space for standing. Putting better seating in would reduce the number of people who can sit further.

Unlike a bus, they also have toilets, so are fine for longer journeys

Not so sure about that. The number of Northern Pacers which have a toilet that doesn't flush or a door that doesn't shut or lock properly is very high.

I had to stand for entire outward journey!

Unless you get a 3 car 144 then you're more likely to have to stand on a Pacer, so that is a disadvantage of a Pacer.

Other disadvantages:
1. Loud squealing on sharp bends.
2. Very poor acceleration - meaning less chance of making up lost time and more likely to hold up following services.
3. Very rough ride on welded track or where there are farmer's crossings on the track.
4. Overheat in the summer.
5. Let too much heat escape through the external doors in the winter.
6. No corridor connectors for running in multiple - It wasn't envisaged that they would normally run in multiple except ECS.
7. Saloon is higher up than on Sprinters meaning a double step was needed, slowing down boarding and alighting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, they are not suitable for long journeys in my view. Though I am more than happy for a 20 minute journey!

A run on a cold winters day in an ex-Merseyrail Class 142 unit that entails travelling over jointed track would be most certainly the ultimate in the annals of "horrors of rail travel".

These two points need to be looked at together. You only need to do a short journey on Wigan-Southport to have had enough of them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The speed on some of Northern's Pacers isn't too bad in my opinion, I was on one of the old First Great Western ones the other week from Sheffield-Manchester Piccadilly which was picking up speed no problems infact going through Cowburn Tunnel we must have been doing at least 60-70mph easilly in the bit that drops down in the tunnel, I wonder whether the driver just let role down the hill before applying power again

The Northern 142s can and do travel at 75mph. They get up to 75 regularly between Manchester and Navigation Road. However, what they struggle with is acceleration. A 142 running Stockport-Manchester stopping at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme takes longer than a 150 or 156 doing the same. Then if a Pacer is overloaded 'struggle' is an understatement.

 

[starrymarkb]

FGWs 143s are preety suited to the Devon Metro - though they usually run in pairs or with a 153

 

[trentside]

I must admit I'm not the biggest Pacer fan.

I think I agree with most of the points made about ride over jointed track and issues with capacity and door layout. Overall, I think the 144s feel slightly more robust that the 142s - the interiors and bodywork just feels of slightly better quality to me, and so I don' mind them quite as much. There are also issues on all types with access for the disabled or those with restricted mobility due to the double step. Other than ex-ATN 142s the heating is also poor in winter, spent many a cold morning shivering on them from Retford to Lincoln.

Until recently, I'd never used a toilet on a Pacer - but had to brave it on a 144 between York and Sheffield. What amazed me, was that Northern had obviously completely ignored the toilet while refreshing the rest of the unit - so there was still green mould growing in the (caravan style) sink and the toilet flush barely worked at all. Got to agree it was no bigger than a broom cupboard - though credit to Northern it was actually looked and smelt clean (other than the sink).

 

[ryan125hst]

My thoughts? I actually enjoy the way they bounce about on jointed track and I find the original bus style seating much more comfortable than the present bucket style individual seats...

I am serious you know! I did actually enjoy a ride on a Pacer!

The bouncing is certainly a pleasure, as are the hard, dig in your shoulders, upright bus seating on some. The noise, lack of ventilation in summer, horrendous draughts and (if you are really lucky to get one of the roof mounted heater beasts) complete lack of hearing in winter make them unmissable.

In totally honesty though, to answer your question - everything.

It looks like I was on the two Pacers in Northern Rail's fleet that were the best maintained then. In all fairness though, they didn't have bus seats and the weather was warm so heating wasn't needed.

However they are better than no service at all, and probably saved a lot of lines from closing.

When they are eventually replaced, they need something like a lightweight, 75mph clas 158

I agree with your first point, but disagree with the second. Class 158's are better suited to longer distance services. Surely a Class 172 would be better for the commuter services that the Pacers normally operate?

On CWR they're not any worse than a 150 and at least let plenty of daylight in! That said, a 144 is far preferable to a 142 of any variety. They're not so bad in summer at least, though during cold weather the draughts from the bus-doors feels like it'd make the teeth rattle!

To be totally honest, I kinda miss the 141s for nostalgic reasons even though they were pretty ropey...

That's probably why it wasn't too bad as most of the track was CWR. I think most of it has been replaced lately (Retford platform 3 for example). There was only a bit of jointed track on the return journey around Kiverton I think. I agree about the bus doors. While there were no draughts, I heard the wind whistling through them!

I find that the biggest problems with pacers are the length of them - they're significantly shorter than most other trains (153s and 139s excluded), meaning that on commuter services out of Manchester and Leeds they get packed out far too easily. The other problem is Deansgate Junction in Timperley - it is the single, most horrible place for screeching around a bend.

Longer trains would have been an improvement for me. I couldn't believe how busy the train was! Fortunatly, there were no sharp curves, so I didn't have to suffer the screech!

 

[Greenback]

Overall, I think the 144s feel slightly more robust that the 142s - the interiors and bodywork just feels of slightly better quality to me, and so I don' mind them quite as much.

I agree, the 144's are better than the other versions.

There are also issues on all types with access for the disabled or those with restricted mobility due to the double step.

The Pacers are definitely a child of their time!

Until recently, I'd never used a toilet on a Pacer - but had to brave it on a 144 between York and Sheffield.

Fortunately, I still haven't had to use the facilities, but judging by the looks on people's faces when they emerge from the toilet it is often not a pleasurable experience!

Even without venturing in they do appear to be rather on the cosy side...

 

[yorksrob]

Fortunately, I still haven't had to use the facilities, but judging by the looks on people's faces when they emerge from the toilet it is often not a pleasurable experience!

Perhaps they should have given it five minutes

 

[pemma]

Fortunately, I still haven't had to use the facilities, but judging by the looks on people's faces when they emerge from the toilet it is often not a pleasurable experience!

Even without venturing in they do appear to be rather on the cosy side...

On lines where most stations don't have toilets, the service isn't that frequent and the journey time isn't too short, trying to avoid using the toilet on the train can be difficult.

 

[ryan125hst]

I find that the bus benches on most of them to be a major plus point for them - I tend to travel at stupid o'clock in the morning, or stupid o'clock at night, so I can just lie down on them and sleep, which is much better for me than on, say, a 185, where the hard edges of the seats keep me awake

I prefer the Pacers to 153's, but maybe that's because I have more chance of getting a seat on the 1735 Swansea to Carmarthen if it is formed of one of the former as opposed to one fo the latter!

At last-some positives! I'm surpised to see someone liking the bus seats!

Lack of room - the 2 car examples aren't big enough for a lot of routes (hence the OP's having to stand half the way), no tables to put anything (trying to put sugar in and remove a teabag on one is an experience) lack of facing seating bays on some and rubbish seats on some.

That isn't the trains fault, just the people who design the interior. If IC75 seats were installed with tables, would you be happer? It shows that the choice of seating in the units have made the passenger's experience worse.

The doors on them just seem so flimsy! One was practically disabled by a rogue bog roll yesterday which found itself jammed behind the door.

What, the toilet doors or the exterior doors? (or both)

What type of Pacer did you travel on and what seating did it have? The 144s provide a better ride than the 142s. The Merseytravel 142s have high density poor seating crammed in and provide limited space for standing. Putting better seating in would reduce the number of people who can sit further.

Both 142's if I remember correctly. Both units had proper seats (not bus seats)- I think they were added during the refurbsihment as they were different to the seats from two years ago (which I belive are ex Northern Spirit.) They did seem a bit small though. Maybe it's just me.

1. Loud squealing on sharp bends.
2. Very poor acceleration - meaning less chance of making up lost time and more likely to hold up following services.
3. Very rough ride on welded track or where there are farmer's crossings on the track.
4. Overheat in the summer.
5. Let too much heat escape through the external doors in the winter.
6. No corridor connectors for running in multiple - It wasn't envisaged that they would normally run in multiple except ECS.
7. Saloon is higher up than on Sprinters meaning a double step was needed, slowing down boarding and alighting.

That's basically a summary of a Pacer! I don't think much thought was put into the design of them really!

On lines where most stations don't have toilets, the service isn't that frequent and the journey time isn't too short, trying to avoid using the toilet on the train can be difficult.

Definitely true. I hope they don't remove them if they refurbish the Pacers, although Porterbrook's plans will see a new disabled access toilet installed (that is, if they don't scrap the Pacers instead).

 

[yorksrob]

That isn't the trains fault, just the people who design the interior. If IC75 seats were installed with tables, would you be happer? It shows that the choice of seating in the units have made the passenger's experience worse.

Well yes, I probably would be. I regard the internal fixtures as fairly central to the travelling experience, hence why I prefer 144's over 142's, Phase 1 CIG's over refurbed CEP's, EMT HST's over East Coast ones etc.

 

[ryan125hst]

EMT HST's over East Coast ones etc.

I'm glad I chose to mention IC75's then: I nearly said the Mallard seats!

 

[yorksrob]

I'm glad I chose to mention IC75's then: I nearly said the Mallard seats!

Good choice as it turns out !

 

[tbtc]

Good for scenic lines - you're nice and high up with panoramic windows - they should introduce them on the West Highland, Far North, S&C etc...

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I like them. They remind me of my travels behind the Iron Curtain in the early 1980s...

 

[pemma]

Good for scenic lines - you're nice and high up with panoramic windows - they should introduce them on the West Highland, Far North, S&C etc...

I think if we really wanted something good for scenic lines then we could come up with a better train design.

The Swiss came up with this design for the same purpose: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TVGSxyTK2...4/n4R3VKkVrW8/s1600/Swiss-glacier-express.jpg
http://www.luxq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/fo-bahn.chMatterhornBahn.jpg

 

[Greenback]

On lines where most stations don't have toilets, the service isn't that frequent and the journey time isn't too short, trying to avoid using the toilet on the train can be difficult.

Indeed, but I am fortunate in that doesn't apply to me, as there are toilets at either end of my regular Pacer journey, which is short enough for me not to need to use the toilets!

Good for scenic lines - you're nice and high up with panoramic windows - they should introduce them on the West Highland, Far North, S&C etc...

Yes, I meant to say in my first post on this thread that the visibility is good.

I think if we really wanted something good for scenic lines then we could come up with a better train design.

The Swiss came up with this design for the same purpose: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TVGSxyTK2...4/n4R3VKkVrW8/s1600/Swiss-glacier-express.jpg
http://www.luxq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/fo-bahn.chMatterhornBahn.jpg

The Swiss scenic carriages are brilliant, but they do have the advantage of a bigger loading guage, which contributes to the air of spaciousness and brightness.

I also think that the length of the more modern units seems to lead to a narrower, and smaller, feel to the interiors. These days I find the Arriva 158's more claustrophobic than I used to, but I have never felt claustrophobic on the shorter Pacers!

 

[455driver]

I had the pleasure of travelling from Exeter to Penzance on a 142 or was it a 143 (it was a while ago, we were going to do the last SWT service back up from Penzance) and it was a very pleasant trip with the big windows offering an excellent view.

They are used on totally unsuitable services and the passenger loadings are ridiculous which are hardly the fault of the trains is it!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At last-some positives! I'm surprised to see someone liking the bus seats!

To hark back to the infancy of the Class 142 Pacer fleet, when they were first introduced upon the Manchester Victoria-Oldham Mumps-Rochdale route, in the first week of their operation, there were Inspectors and Public Relations staff travelling on them and asking the passengers what they thought of these new trains. One female Oldham resident, about 70 years of age, was not at all impressed with this new mode of travel and mentioned the seating, the doors, etc, but her most scathing comment came at the end of the survey under the "any other comments" section, when she was asked if she had anything to add.

She looked the unfortunate Public Relations man straight in the eye and said to him in a severe tone of voice "Young man, I have a train ticket for this journey. If I had wanted to travel on a bus, I would have done so."...

In the immortal phrase so often used by Max Boyce, I was there, to observe this event. Motto : Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs.