What is so bad about voyagers ?

[Yew]

So a five coach Mk 3 rake (including two power cars, so roughly 140 metres) has more seats than a four coach Voyager (roughly 90 metres)?

That's not very surprising.

But the HST is 1.555 times longer than the voyager, however has 1.57 times the seats. So even with a two power cars, it is as effici9ent in its use of space. (and you dont have to sit on a cummins engine )

 

[tbtc]

The three main problems I have are the seats, the windows and the smell. Even if the trains were longer, I doubt XC would be willing to replace the seats or realign them with the windows

Almost all trains have "airline" seats" these days, meaning not every seat lines up with a window, yet strangely people don't complain about seats no lining up with windows on Mk 4s etc.

If Voyagers were long enough people wouldn't make these secondary complaints (toilets, seats lining up with windows).

Its a bit like when you complain about poor service from a company, you'll mention in your complaint letter that you had to pay for an 0871 number and you'll mention in your complaint letter that you were on hold for five minutes - yet if you'd had good service from them you probably won't complain (even if you were paying for the 0871 number etc).

But the HST is 1.555 times longer than the voyager, however has 1.57 times the seats. So even with a two power cars, it is as effici9ent in its use of space. (and you dont have to sit on a cummins engine )

I agree that the HST is a more efficient use of space, and I'd probably prefer an HST to a Voyager, but I thought it was a pretty unfair comparison (a 140m train has more seats than a 90m train).

Its a bit like when people use the "a four coach Voyager replaced a nine coach HST/loco hauled rake" argument - whilst I'm not claiming that the Voyagers saw a big increase in capacity, we did see a half hourly four/five coach service (so nine coaches an hour) replacing a roughly seven coach train (the fact that many HSTs in the UK are now nine coaches confuses some people - IIRC all Cross Country ones were just seven).

I'm not saying Voyagers are great, just that they get criticised unfairly for a few things...

 

[Yew]

I agree that the HST is a more efficient use of space, and I'd probably prefer an HST to a Voyager, but I thought it was a pretty unfair comparison (a 140m train has more seats than a 90m train).

Its a bit like when people use the "a four coach Voyager replaced a nine coach HST/loco hauled rake" argument - whilst I'm not claiming that the Voyagers saw a big increase in capacity, we did see a half hourly four/five coach service (so nine coaches an hour) replacing a roughly seven coach train (the fact that many HSTs in the UK are now nine coaches confuses some people - IIRC all Cross Country ones were just seven).

I see what you mean, and thinking about it my comparison isnt great, as a 140m voyager would probably have two full coackes (ie no crumple zones or buffets or disabled toilets) so would probably have a few more seats than a 140m HST but not massively

 

[HSTEd]

I agree that the HST is a more efficient use of space, and I'd probably prefer an HST to a Voyager, but I thought it was a pretty unfair comparison (a 140m train has more seats than a 90m train).

Its a bit like when people use the "a four coach Voyager replaced a nine coach HST/loco hauled rake" argument - whilst I'm not claiming that the Voyagers saw a big increase in capacity, we did see a half hourly four/five coach service (so nine coaches an hour) replacing a roughly seven coach train (the fact that many HSTs in the UK are now nine coaches confuses some people - IIRC all Cross Country ones were just seven).

I'm not saying Voyagers are great, just that they get criticised unfairly for a few things...

I know, my point was more that the fact that a 2+5 HST cannot work in multiple and would not fit into the platforms used by double Voyagers if it did are almost irrelevant because a single train would have 75% of the seats of a double 4-coach Voyager formation (so 8-coaches) and would thus be less likely to have to work in multiple in the first place if they replaced 4 coach workings.

This means that, providing they can keep to Voyager timings, they could be relatively easily be added to the XC fleet. (And I hope they will be when the time comes).


Another point is that the 4 coach Voyagers have the same amoutn of seats as XC's three coach Turbostars... so they basically loose an entire coach for a few more first class seats and a catering base.

 

[LE Greys]

Another point is that the 4 coach Voyagers have the same amoutn of seats as XC's three coach Turbostars... so they basically loose an entire coach for a few more first class seats and a catering base.

Potentially, they could cascade some of the Turbostars, depending on SP vs DMU speed limits. I'm sure that Northern, for instance, would be interested in them as a way of partly-modernising their fleet.

 

[Schnellzug]

The three main problems I have are the seats, the windows and the smell. Even if the trains were longer, I doubt XC would be willing to replace the seats or realign them with the windows, and the smell doesn't just affect the vestibule, but normally goes some way into the carriage as well.

That's the same with all trains, even going back Mk 3's when they were first introduced. Funnily enough, looking through old Magazines, you'll see exactly the same things said about Mk 3's as is said nowabout Voyagers and Pendos - about 'airline' seats that don't match up with windows, and how they're not nearly as comfortable as they were in the old days, how small the windows are, and so on. I do agree that the seat cushions are rather thin and the edges rather sharp (although the backs of them are fine), but not lining up with Windows isn't something unique to Voyagers. And i really will have to try to find one of these legendary Smells some time.

 

[DescendingSadly]

What is the standard formation of a 220 and a 221?

 

[IanXC]

What is the standard formation of a 220 and a 221?

CrossCountry 220s are
DMS+MS+MS+DMS

CrossCountry 221s are
DMS+MS+MS+(MS)+DMF

So on CrossCountry:
Coach A is First Class
Coach B is Standard Class (not present in 4 car units)
Coach C is Standard Class
Coach D is Standard Class with luggage space (where the Shop used to be)
Coach E is Standard Class Quiet Coach

All but Coach D have a toilet, all of which are accessible.

Virgin Trains 221s are:
DMS+MS+MS+MSRMB+DMF
(although they have also broken up a 4 car 221 to make 2 others 5 car, so one has 2x MSRMB vehicles)

On Virgin Trains:
Coach A (&G) is Standard Class Quiet Coach
Coach B (&H) is Standard Class
Coach C (&J) is Standard Class
Coach D (&K) is Standard Class with the Shop
Coach E (&L) is First Class

All but Coach D have a toilet, all of which are accessible.

DMS: Driving Motor Standard
MS: Motor Standard
DMF: Driving Motor First
MSRMB: Motor Standard Restaurant Micro Buffet

 

[142094]

That's the same with all trains, even going back Mk 3's when they were first introduced. Funnily enough, looking through old Magazines, you'll see exactly the same things said about Mk 3's as is said nowabout Voyagers and Pendos - about 'airline' seats that don't match up with windows, and how they're not nearly as comfortable as they were in the old days, how small the windows are, and so on. I do agree that the seat cushions are rather thin and the edges rather sharp (although the backs of them are fine), but not lining up with Windows isn't something unique to Voyagers. And i really will have to try to find one of these legendary Smells some time.

Perhaps I am unlucky, but most of my journeys made on XC are between Newcastle and Derby, or shorter. In most cases it means that the train has been going for a good while and the toilets have been christened.

I take the point about seats not lining up with windows on other stock, but the combination of hard seats, the windows, the toilets and the overall claustrophobic feel of the carriage is what puts me off. In all honesty I've travelled on some of Northern's Pacers that have nicer seating than XC's Voyagers.

 

[Hydro]

The worst part is that there's a good chance XCDriver could be driving it.

 

[LE Greys]

That's the same with all trains, even going back Mk 3's when they were first introduced. Funnily enough, looking through old Magazines, you'll see exactly the same things said about Mk 3's as is said nowabout Voyagers and Pendos - about 'airline' seats that don't match up with windows, and how they're not nearly as comfortable as they were in the old days, how small the windows are, and so on. I do agree that the seat cushions are rather thin and the edges rather sharp (although the backs of them are fine), but not lining up with Windows isn't something unique to Voyagers. And i really will have to try to find one of these legendary Smells some time.

The MkIII window problem, to clarify what I said up the thread, was caused by the fact that there is basically only one type of body for all the coaches. It has eight windows, set out perfectly for first class seat pitch. MkII FOs have seven windows, while TSOs had eight, specifically so that they can line up with the windows with the seating bays (seven for an FO, eight for a TSO) and that practice goes back to the Liverpool & Manchester Railway. MkIIIs broke with that by using the common body, and prioritised the needs of first class passengers by lining up the windows perfectly for a TF with eight seating bays, so the nine seating bays in a TS did not match (indeed the middle bay was precisely aligned with the middle window pillar). Airline seating effectively sorted it out, except for a few seats at about the 1/3 and 2/3 positions.

 

[Minilad]

The worst part is that there's a good chance XCDriver could be driving it.

bwahahahahaha

 

[Requeststop]

I disliked them at first sight which was when I was waiting at Truro to go down to St. Erth. The announcement was made for the Penzance-Aberdeen service to arrive on the opposite very crowded platform and this 5 car abomination clattered into the station. I was thinking if the train was so full after Truro what the hell would be the state of the coaches when the train was beyond Bristol with the usual left behind trash etc., and who the hell would want to sit hours in such conditions. Put me off Cross Country travel by rail I can tell you.

Like many others, I love HST's

 

[The 375 King]

Q. What is so bad about Voyagers?
A. Everything, ugly buggers too.

 

[dvboy]

Not a fan of Voyagers however Virgin's coach D wifi is still set up for First Class therefore free

 

[jones_bangor]

Not a fan of Voyagers however Virgin's coach D wifi is still set up for First Class therefore free

Coach D on a Virgin Voyager is very likeable...they should all have had that layout in standard and been 6 coaches long!!

 

[lordhinton]

there cabs seem to be entertaining! (been to railfest in 221144)

 

[SprinterMan]

Coach D on a Virgin Voyager is very likeable...they should all have had that layout in standard and been 6 coaches long!!

I honestly far prefer the Standard class seats on a voyager to the 1st class seats. They are just much more comfortable imo, although legroom isn't always great (I'm 6ft 2)
Adam

 

[60163]

Nothing new to say here, but I too dislike the smell of poo wafting through the carriage, the window vibrations, the constant crowdedness...

...but they photograph well, but then I suppose you're spending more time out of them than in.

It's a ****er to get on, say, at Birmingham on a long-distance journey and the seat, according to the digital screen thingummy, says the seat is avaliable, thus you sit down, then, at Sheffield for example, you're evicted ffrom your seat. You then look at the screen and it says "Reserved Sheffield-York". Why not say that at the start of the journey? Bah.

 

[dvboy]

It's a ****er to get on, say, at Birmingham on a long-distance journey and the seat, according to the digital screen thingummy, says the seat is avaliable, thus you sit down, then, at Sheffield for example, you're evicted ffrom your seat. You then look at the screen and it says "Reserved Sheffield-York". Why not say that at the start of the journey? Bah.

In that case it should say "Available until Sheffield".

 

[jones_bangor]

It's a ****er to get on, say, at Birmingham on a long-distance journey and the seat, according to the digital screen thingummy, says the seat is avaliable, thus you sit down, then, at Sheffield for example, you're evicted ffrom your seat. You then look at the screen and it says "Reserved Sheffield-York". Why not say that at the start of the journey? Bah.

I thought they had a message that told you where the seat was available for....or have XC reprogrammed theirs? More annoying is when the whole reservation system fails!!

 

[TaysideTrainz]

tbh, I don't see the point in people saying things about these trains. Basically, a train is a train!

 

[Badger]

Tell that to Pacer users!

 

[142094]

Tell that to Pacer users!

Qu: When is a train not a train?

A: When it is a Pacer and half bus and half train.

 

[Robinson]

Coach D on a Virgin Voyager is very likeable...they should all have had that layout in standard and been 6 coaches long!!

This will be controversial, but I prefer the standard class seating NOT in coach D. Unless I happen to be travelling in a party of 4 (which I never do these days), I get far more legroom in an airline-style seat than in a table seat if someone gets on and sits opposite me. (And by the way, that's nothing to do with me being anti-social - I prefer to sit in the window seat than put a bag there!)

 

[HowMuch?]

I'll try not to go off on one again about a so-called "reservation" system that is actually a "bounce unsuspecting passeger from their originally unreserved seat just when all other seats are now taken" system!

But aren't Voyagers the ones with the almost incessant "beepity beeep" alarm that means someome has (usually inadvertently) triggered the alarm in the loo?