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What is the cause of unreliability of Vivarail Class 230 trains?

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DarloRich

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Vivarail have said that there are some known issues with the cooling systems - has anything else being said officially about the causes of the unreliability?

I got into a Twitter conversation with Vivarail yesterday in which they specifically said that the engines themselves were not the issue, rather (implicitly) the design/layout of the raft itself.

They said that there is a shortage of gensets.


What is wrong with the trains? A good question!

A 2 page leaflet I have seen a copy of ( they were given out yesterday but I didn't get to meet any managers due to, guess what, a train failure) was given out yesterday during the abortive meet the managers event. One page is give to the LNWR Customer Experience Director ( oh how I would like to direct him where he can shove his passenger experience!) with much of his section given over to bland platitudes. However he says :

The Class 230's previously worked on the London Underground District line , but were rebuilt..... This included the installation of power generators and door locking systems..... it is the poor reliability of this equipment which is causing trains to be taken out of service so often for repairs.

That doesn't tell us much of any use. However the following paragraph really annoys me:

Things aren't going to change overnight, and invetiably that means we'll sometimes have to run buses on the Marston Vale instead of trains. However we know that rail replacement replacement services need to run more smoothly, and were therefore devolving much more decision making to the local station team at Bletchley. That should mean buses turn up quicker, and taxis are more readily available when things go wrong.

No apology, no acknowledgement that the service is poor and they are failing to deliver yet taking our money, no acknowledgement of the delays and inconvenience, no acknowledgement that the bus service often doesn't turn up at the intermediate stations just a glib, almost smug, acceptance that buses will run. It is very poor and maddening. But hey, they have made it easier for the buses to turn up. FFS. Point missed.

The second page of the leaflet is given over to the chairman of Vivarail. Firstly, there is not one word of apology from him for his company failing to deliver a train that works, failing to rectify the relability problems between introduction at Easter and today nor any timescale when we can expect to receive the service we pay for. Disgraceful. Perhaps he simply doesn't care. Perhaps he isnt feeling any pain. Us mere passengers are.

He goes on to say that the difficulties we have had are primarily with the gensets ( power generators). Most issues relate to the cooling of the units, although some faults ( no examples given) have only become evident with longer-term use.

The following paragraph says:

performance to date has been hampered by having insufficient gensets to support failures. However, we are pleased to report that our maintenance team in Bletchley now has access to additional, Gensets with four spare units avialable.

So that tells us something at least. What it doesn't tell us is why insufficient spare capacity was provided or why it has taken this long to obtain extra spares! Perhaps they are unavailable in the market, perhaps sub contractors have let them down, perhaps there have been contractual arguments over funding. How about telling us this?

The next paragraph says: These spares, together with the team we have in place to effect repairs, are expected to have a significant impact on performance. In addition, we will bring extra support for the team at Beltchley whenever necessary.

No indication of when we can expect to see a "significant impact on performance" or the % increase to be delivered. It is worth noting that the trains are broken today. I wonder what the criteria for delivering extra staff to Bletchley are? One wonders how much worse it has to get before those criteria are met? I suggest they were needed months ago!

The final paragraph says: We have also set out a further medium-term plan to make additional resources available at Bletchley & Seaham ( our base where Gensets are repaired) and have started a programme of re-work on all Gensets, utilising the additional spares that are now available.

That is nice information. There is no indication when we will see the benefit! On what date will Vivarail be able to provide a working product to allow LNWR to deliver the whole Marston Vale timetable to us now extremely pi$$ed of passengers?

Further, this page suggests the only faults are with the Gensets. As a regular users I know there have been more failures than gensets yet no other failures are mentioned. I wonder why?

he signs of all the best. Thanks - we need it.

PS on the back cover of the leaflet is a route map. LNWR have spelled the name of one of their stations, Ridgmont, wrongly. That should tell you all you need to know about how much consideration they give about our line.



 
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ashkeba

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If a subcontractor is struggling unexpectedly, naming them in PR as you suggest could provoke their investors onto losing confidence and withdrawing,collapsing the company and making matters worse. If Viva rail is willing to carry the blame in hope of taking the credit later, let them.
 

Bletchleyite

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PS on the back cover of the leaflet is a route map. LNWR have spelled the name of one of their stations, Ridgmont, wrongly. That should tell you all you need to know about how much consideration they give about our line.

To be fair, I'm yet to see any evidence that the new operator gives, er, a pile of faeces, for any part of its operation. It really is excruciatingly poor in just about every way compared with LM, and with no sign of improvement whatsoever. I wouldn't say LM didn't have serious teething troubles at first (each year Timehop reminds me of a load of whining FB posts I made at the time), but the continuing "service" from LNR is going well beyond that.

The one thing they have done that is good is coughed up to get the 350/2s out more and reduce weekend 4-car running, but apart from that it is without doubt the worst service the south WCML has had in years. So I wouldn't be surprised that one of the least significant parts of that TOC is suffering badly.
 
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DarloRich

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If a subcontractor is struggling unexpectedly, naming them in PR as you suggest could provoke their investors onto losing confidence and withdrawing,collapsing the company and making matters worse. If Viva rail is willing to carry the blame in hope of taking the credit later, let them.

TBH I no longer care and simply want a train to turn up, roughly, when the timetable says. I want to get the train to work rather than a taxi. You know, the train I have paid for up front...................

To be fair, I'm yet to see any evidence that the new operator gives, er, a pile of faeces, for any part of its operation.

My willingness to be fair to LNWR has been exhausted. Last night was the final straw.
 

Bletchleyite

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My willingness to be fair to LNWR has been exhausted. Last night was the final straw.

Mine went ages ago. They implemented a mainline timetable that was never going to work, and are not doing anything visible about that either. OK, they can't do much about changing it for a while, but they certainly could get their recruiting hats on and step up the crew diagrams, which are the main issue with it (the units are almost always in the right place, but they waste time being sat waiting for over-tight crew diagrams to catch up). Or they could recognise it won't work and put an emergency timetable in place with reduced frequencies and longer trains.

As for the MV, I think the only sensible thing now is to put buses on permanently as at least you can plan for it - alongside a plan to fix or replace the 230s - or both. There must surely be some Pacers or 153s available soon.

Anyway, I hope their managers enjoyed their bus ride back from Bedford, and hope it made a point to them.
 

DarloRich

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Mine went ages ago. They implemented a mainline timetable that was never going to work, and are not doing anything visible about that either. OK, they can't do much about changing it for a while, but they certainly could get their recruiting hats on and step up the crew diagrams, which are the main issue with it (the units are almost always in the right place, but they waste time being sat waiting for over-tight crew diagrams to catch up). Or they could recognise it won't work and put an emergency timetable in place with reduced frequencies and longer trains.

On the Vale the passenger numbers have dropped because the trains are so unreliable. They might only see the numbers on the vale and shrug but almost all of those passengers was making an onward journey to MK or London.

As for the MV, I think the only sensible thing now is to put buses on permanently as at least you can plan for it - alongside a plan to fix or replace the 230s - or both.

It is so bad that I am off to look at cars this weekend. I may as well drive now because i am spending so much on cabs. I never thought I would be saying that.
 

Bletchleyite

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It is so bad that I am off to look at cars this weekend. I may as well drive now because i am spending so much on cabs. I never thought I would be saying that.

On the basis that it'll improve at some point I'd go for a pushbike, the Southern service from Bletchley to MKC (if the timing works for you) is now pretty reliable, and Bletchley has undercover cycle storage with cameras all over it.

Never thought I'd say that! :)
 

DarloRich

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On the basis that it'll improve at some point I'd go for a pushbike, the Southern service from Bletchley to MKC (if the timing works for you) is now pretty reliable, and Bletchley has undercover cycle storage with cameras all over it.

the problem is storage at home. I don't really have any suitable for a bike! I don't mind walking down to Blethcley in the nice weather but it is going to get tiresome really quickly once the weather breaks.
 

ashkeba

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the problem is storage at home. I don't really have any suitable for a bike! I don't mind walking down to Blethcley in the nice weather but it is going to get tiresome really quickly once the weather breaks.
Not even a cupboard for a Dahon clone?Ordinary walking waterproofs ttend to be OK on such upright bikes too ands are also great for waiting on platforms. Like the Dutch say, there is no bad weather, only wrong clothing.
 

DarloRich

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Not even a cupboard for a Dahon clone?Ordinary walking waterproofs ttend to be OK on such upright bikes too ands are also great for waiting on platforms. Like the Dutch say, there is no bad weather, only wrong clothing.

I live in a small victorian terrace. Door opens from street into narrow hall. There is no rear access
 

ashkeba

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I live in a small victorian terrace. Door opens from street into narrow hall. There is no rear access
I've lived in similar. Carried the bike through. Worse was when I lived in flat with only stairs up. Still worth it to have a way to avoid rubbish buses there.

Better if they fixed the trains for your area though!
 

DarloRich

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i don't mind walking actually. I find it quite refreshing after a long day at work. I would prefer to chose when i walk mind ;)
 

43096

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There must surely be some Pacers or 153s available soon.
The 153 previously used is still with LNR isn’t it? With the additional 172s now arrived ought to be time to get a couple down to Bletchley (the Coventry-Nuneaton is no longer 153 either). They aren’t PRM modified I don’t believe so have to go in December anyway, so transferring now would give Viva some breathing space and crews should still be competent.
 

Bletchleyite

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The 153 previously used is still with LNR isn’t it? With the additional 172s now arrived ought to be time to get a couple down to Bletchley (the Coventry-Nuneaton is no longer 153 either). They aren’t PRM modified I don’t believe so have to go in December anyway, so transferring now would give Viva some breathing space and crews should still be competent.

Even one would help. Keep it in platform 6 ready and operate the service from 5. If the 230 conks out, quick platform alteration and off you go near to on time.
 

DarloRich

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The 153 previously used is still with LNR isn’t it? With the additional 172s now arrived ought to be time to get a couple down to Bletchley (the Coventry-Nuneaton is no longer 153 either). They aren’t PRM modified I don’t believe so have to go in December anyway, so transferring now would give Viva some breathing space and crews should still be competent.

They are determined not to. I guess keeping brummies happy is more important than offering us, you know, an actual service!

Even one would help. Keep it in platform 6 ready and operate the service from 5. If the 230 conks out, quick platform alteration and off you go near to on time.

LNWR (and LM before them) wont use P5 all day because they are paranoid about blocking south facing access to the carriage sidings/reducing operational flexibility

According to Three Counties, there is no serviceable unit at all at the moment so the whole thing is off.

there seems to be one unit in use
 

Bletchleyite

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LNWR (and LM before them) wont use P5 all day because they are paranoid about blocking south facing access to the carriage sidings/reducing operational flexibility

Presently almost all the layover is at the Bletchley end. How feasible would it be to change the timetable so most of it was at the Bedford end instead (in the dedicated bay) so the platform could be occupied for only about 5 minutes for a quick turnaround?
 

DarloRich

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Presently almost all the layover is at the Bletchley end. How feasible would it be to change the timetable so most of it was at the Bedford end instead (in the dedicated bay) so the platform could be occupied for only about 5 minutes for a quick turnaround?

i have tried asking that - i suspect there may be similar issues with access to Caldwell sidings and the depot area at Bedford

Just putting a lift in on P6 at Beltchey would be much easier!
 

Bletchleyite

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i have tried asking that - i suspect there may be similar issues with access to Caldwell sidings and the depot area at Bedford

Just putting a lift in on P6 at Beltchey would be much easier!

That was a big omission of the (relatively recent) bridge refurb. I suspect they probably thought it would close in due course!

I don't think there is such an issue at Bedford because it's a dedicated bay platform, a unit sitting there doesn't block anything. I suspect the layover being at the Bletchley end is simply because it's a LNR crew depot and so PNB facilities are easier to arrange.

My point though wasn't about the lift, it was about the possibility of having another unit on standby ready to go in the event of a failure (just swapping to 153 operation isn't ideal as for the school trains the capacity would be inadequate). Though you could probably as easily do that with a coach parked out front.
 

Bantamzen

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The 1736 from bletchley has been cancelled due to a train failure so no opportunity to speak to any managers!

There was, obviously no one at bletchley on the platform to help passengers

I don't wish to trivialise the problems you are having on that line, but I must confess this did make me chuckle a bit. Sorry.

Its no secret that I was never a fan of this project, but by the sounds of things there are some really quite serious problems with these units. And to be honest if they can't be resolved quickly, and I don't mean by constantly swapping out poorly performing gensets, then there really needs to be another solution. It would be tempting to suggest Pacers, but in all honesty whilst being workhorses they are at end of life and if a small number were moved onto that line and started to fail, you'd be in exactly the same situation that you are in now. Perhaps its time to rethink the 230 solution, and look to existing stock that can be made, or is DDA compliant and is reliable enough to be able to be run as a microfleet.
 

samuelmorris

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I don't wish to trivialise the problems you are having on that line, but I must confess this did make me chuckle a bit. Sorry.

Its no secret that I was never a fan of this project, but by the sounds of things there are some really quite serious problems with these units. And to be honest if they can't be resolved quickly, and I don't mean by constantly swapping out poorly performing gensets, then there really needs to be another solution. It would be tempting to suggest Pacers, but in all honesty whilst being workhorses they are at end of life and if a small number were moved onto that line and started to fail, you'd be in exactly the same situation that you are in now. Perhaps its time to rethink the 230 solution, and look to existing stock that can be made, or is DDA compliant and is reliable enough to be able to be run as a microfleet.
Given the unit length issues that led to the 230s being ordered in the first place, the only viable options are 153 or 150 I think.
 
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