What is the optimum train for Northern Powerhouse Rail?

[Purple Orange]

Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) is a moving feast of different possible outcomes, whether it be a completely new line from Liverpool underground in Manchester to Leeds via Bradford, or simply just upgrades of the existing lines.

With that in mind, what do you think will be the type of train we will see on the network? Currently the core market of NPR is served by TransPennine Express (TPE), which run a variety of trains, from 5-car bi-mode 802s, 5-car 397 EMUs, 5-car Mark 5s with a 68 and Desiro 185s in 3 or 6-car formation with doors at thirds.

In my opinion, I think we will see NPR trains run in to Manchester Piccadilly HS2 station, reverse and head south. Across the Pennines I believe we will see the Trans Pennine Route Upgrade and full electrification via Huddersfield to become NPR, with NPR services split between Manchester Piccadilly (2 from Birmingham, 2 starting at Piccadilly) and Manchester Victoria (2 from Liverpool), giving a service pattern of:

• Birmingham Curzon Street - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds - Newcastle
• Birmingham Curzon Street - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds
• Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh
• Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds - York
• Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Leeds - Hull
• Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Leeds - Middlesbrough

Therefore I think we will see a mix of 200m HS2 classic compatibles and 8-car Javelins.

Thoughts?

 

[HST43257]

So you don’t think the tunnel will happen?

On the subject of service pattern, I’d ignore the main TPE route. The NPR trains should be 200m Classic Compatible. 8 x 25m coaches. The sets would need to be capable of at least 186mph for a high speed inland Newcastle to Edinburgh route, so HS2 CC makes sense.



- 2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh calling at Warrington, Man Airport, Man Pic, Leeds, (ONTO NR NETWORK) York, Darlington, Newcastle, Edinburgh.

- 2tph Birmingham to Newcastle calling at Crewe, Man Airport, Man Pic, Bradford, Leeds, (ONTO NR NETWORK) York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.

- 2tph Liverpool to Hull calling at Widnes, Warrington, Man Airport, Man Pic, Bradford, Leeds, (ONTO NR NETWORK) Selby, Brough, Hull.

- 1tph Liverpool to Cleethorpes calling at Warrington, Man Airport, Man Pic, (ONTO NR NETWORK) Stockport, Sheffield, Meadowhall, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby, Cleethorpes

 

[Purple Orange]

So you don’t think the tunnel will happen?

On the subject of service pattern, I’d ignore the main TPE route. The NPR trains should be 200m Classic Compatible. 8 x 25m coaches. The sets would need to be capable of at least 186mph for a high speed inland Newcastle to Edinburgh route, so HS2 CC makes sense.



- 2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh calling at Warrington, Man Airport, Man Pic, Leeds, (ONTO NR NETWORK) York, Darlington, Newcastle, Edinburgh.

- 2tph Birmingham to Newcastle calling at Crewe, Man Airport, Man Pic, Bradford, Leeds, (ONTO NR NETWORK) York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.

- 2tph Liverpool to Hull calling at Widnes, Warrington, Man Airport, Man Pic, Bradford, Leeds, (ONTO NR NETWORK) Selby, Brough, Hull.

- 1tph Liverpool to Cleethorpes calling at Warrington, Man Airport, Man Pic, (ONTO NR NETWORK) Stockport, Sheffield, Meadowhall, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby, Cleethorpes

I think the tunnel to Manchester Airport will happen as part of phase 2b, but I can’t see a tunnel under the centre of Manchester happening with an underground station. Perhaps there could be a section of new high speed line between Manchester & Huddersfield feeding in to the 4-traced section of Trans Pennine Route Upgrade.

 

[HST43257]

I think the tunnel to Manchester Airport will happen as part of phase 2b, but I can’t see a tunnel under the centre of Manchester happening with an underground station. Perhaps there could be a section of new high speed line between Manchester & Huddersfield feeding in to the 4-traced section of Trans Pennine Route Upgrade.

I was referring to the Manchester - Bradford - Leeds tunnel. This will take all the pressure off the TransPennine and a lot off the Hope Valley, since there will only be 3-4tph running fast on the Standedge route in my idea. There’d be more opportunities for commuter services there PLUS relieving the Hope Valley of many freight services, meaning there’s more room for slower and faster services there.

 

[Halish Railway]

I’d like to see some of the HS2 trains that terminate at Manchester Piccadilly be extended to terminate at Bradford instead, those being an hourly London service and an hourly Birmingham service.

Assuming that there will be a five minute dwell time at Manchester and a 20 minute journey time from Manchester to Bradford, this will give provide a service from Bradford to;
- London taking 1h 36m
- Birmingham taking 1h 6m

 

[Purple Orange]

I was referring to the Manchester - Bradford - Leeds tunnel. This will take all the pressure off the TransPennine and a lot off the Hope Valley, since there will only be 3-4tph running fast on the Standedge route in my idea. There’d be more opportunities for commuter services there PLUS relieving the Hope Valley of many freight services, meaning there’s more room for slower and faster services there.

Oh, yeah I’d like to see something like that, but I doubt it will ever see the light of day. We’ll be talking about it one day in the same sense that the Pic-Vic tunnel is spoken of, or Boris Island.

The thing that gives me that scepticism is that the objectives of NPR and Trans Pennine Route Upgrade (TPRU) are very very close. NPR set out to see 8 tph between Leeds & Manchester, with journey times of 30 minutes. TPRU will deliver 6 tph (4 fast, 2 semi-fast) in 39 minutes. The HS2 plans for Piccadilly accommodates 6 tph, with room for growth in frequency. The NPR route via Huddersfield costs £13bn and TPRU is set to cost £2.9bn (I believe excluding any work between Stalybridge & Huddersfield, but I may be wrong). Therefore does a 9 minute time saving and 2 more fast tph justify the additional cost?

 

[HST43257]

Oh, yeah I’d like to see something like that, but I doubt it will ever see the light of day. We’ll be talking about it one day in the same sense that the Pic-Vic tunnel is spoken of, or Boris Island.

The thing that gives me that scepticism is that the objectives of NPR and Trans Pennine Route Upgrade (TPRU) are very very close. NPR set out to see 8 tph between Leeds & Manchester, with journey times of 30 minutes. TPRU will deliver 6 tph (4 fast, 2 semi-fast) in 39 minutes. The HS2 plans for Piccadilly accommodates 6 tph, with room for growth in frequency. The NPR route via Huddersfield costs £13bn and TPRU is set to cost £2.9bn (I believe excluding any work between Stalybridge & Huddersfield, but I may be wrong). Therefore does a 9 minute time saving and 2 more fast tph justify the additional cost?

As I say, the wider benefits are key. Freight from the Hope valley and enhanced TP and Hope Valley local services are key.

 

[Recessio]

Obviously the best option is to use Pacers /s

 

[Purple Orange]

As I say, the wider benefits are key. Freight from the Hope valley and enhanced TP and Hope Valley local services are key.

But isn’t the Hope Valley going to become a separate issue to NPR between Leeds & Manc?

Back to the trains though, I think the Liverpool services will run as semi-fast, with the fast running on to the HS2 line. Therefore we could see a more varied example, with HS2 classic compatibles running the fast services, and something similar to 200m AT200 trains running the semi-fasts.

 

[HST43257]

But isn’t the Hope Valley going to become a separate issue to NPR between Leeds & Manc?

No, because my point is that there’ll be capacity over Standedge for Hope Valley freight to be diverted.

Obviously the best option is to use Pacers /s

Agreed. Triple decker if possible

 

[Purple Orange]

No, because my point is that there’ll be capacity over Standedge for Hope Valley freight to be diverted.

Yes that is correct, but that doesn’t mean an entirely new line? That could be achieved with a partial line or 4-tracking.

 

[HST43257]

Yes that is correct, but that doesn’t mean an entirely new line? That could be achieved with a partial line or 4-tracking.

Remember Bradford! NPR isn’t just taking the TPE route, if youre on the TPE route from Marsden to Bradley Jn, you’re not saving cash, you’re just bringing in delays.

 

[Purple Orange]

Remember Bradford! NPR isn’t just taking the TPE route, if youre on the TPE route from Marsden to Bradley Jn, you’re not saving cash, you’re just bringing in delays.

A new line via Bradford is very very unlikely.

 

[HSTEd]

It's basically a Class 395 esque train, with as much installed power as they can cram in.

 

[HST43257]

A new line via Bradford is very very unlikely.

It’s what it needs, and it’d what it should (eventually) get

 

[Purple Orange]

It’s what it needs, and it’d what it should (eventually) get

I’d say Bradford needs a proper intercity connection, which would require a new line, but Leeds to Manchester doesn’t need the line to go via Bradford.

 

[HST43257]

I’d say Bradford needs a proper intercity connection, which would require a new line, but Leeds to Manchester doesn’t need the line to go via Bradford.

That’s where I’d just say it makes the most sense. Leeds and Bradford need better Manchester connections, so you put them on one line, no?

 

[Purple Orange]

That’s where I’d just say it makes the most sense. Leeds and Bradford need better Manchester connections, so you put them on one line, no?

If you are building a completely new line, yes. But if it's a case of partial new line and existing lines, the Huddersfield route will be best. However the overall objective from Leeds & Manchester perspective may be the same either way.

 

[HST43257]

If you are building a completely new line, yes. But if it's a case of partial new line and existing lines, the Huddersfield route will be best. However the overall objective from Leeds & Manchester perspective may be the same either way.

But the only 4 track is Huddersfield to Thornhill. If you want to get the necessary upgrades, you have to have a 4 track formation. I don’t see that in a semi build

 

[Purple Orange]

But the only 4 track is Huddersfield to Thornhill. If you want to get the necessary upgrades, you have to have a 4 track formation. I don’t see that in a semi build

Well Huddersfield-Dewsbury will be 4-track, as can sections in east Manchester from Piccadilly. It depends upon how much the government is willing to invest, but I think the core objectives of NPR can be met through a partial new line and TPRU.

Really this is all about unlocking the economic potential of the northern cities, which means bringing the Travel To Work Areas (TTWA) of various city pairs together. Currently they are separate and although Liverpool TTWA and the Leeds TTWO can be merged, or the Manchester & Sheffield TTWA can’t be merged, the cities can be linked in a chain:

• Liverpool <> Manchester
• Manchester <> Leeds
• Leeds <> Sheffield

The question here is what facilitates that best?

 

[quantinghome]

Ideally I'd like double deckers like the SNCB M6 carriages which do a very similar job to NPR on the Belgian network and pack in a massive number of passengers. However, this assumes we'll get any section built to double deck gauge, and even if we get new build for Liverpool - Leeds, it would preclude through trains east of Leeds. So sadly that will have to wait.

 

[HSTEd]

Ideally I'd like double deckers like the SNCB M6 carriages which do a very similar job to NPR on the Belgian network and pack in a massive number of passengers. However, this assumes we'll get any section built to double deck gauge, and even if we get new build for Liverpool - Leeds, it would preclude through trains east of Leeds. So sadly that will have to wait.

I would expect any new section to be built to GC gauge, just like HS2, so should be able to accept pretty much any double deck stock we might want.

We might be able to get to York if the HS2-2 East project actually goes through (assuming NPR properly ties in with it), and after that gauge clearance to at least one of the TPE end destinations wouldn't be too bad. I make it only 15 bridges over the railway between Scarborough and York.
Might be worth funding that just as a real world trial of what it costs.

Then could run Scarborough-Liverpool TPE trains.

 

[squizzler]

Another vote for double decker such as Siemens Desiro HC, Bombardier Omnio or the new Alstom Coradia Stream HC. These trains feature a mix of single deck cars with wide doors and boarding areas and double deck saloon seated cars.

To the best of my understanding this design allows intercity ambience and rapid boarding for local ”hop on hop off” traffic to coexist, perfect for Britain’s railway except we never been able to do it on our legacy routes.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’ve added in double decker trains as an option. Anyone can change their vote and pick up to three options.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another vote for double decker such as Siemens Desiro HC, Bombardier Omnio or the new Alstom Coradia Stream HC. These trains feature a mix of single deck cars with wide doors and boarding areas and double deck saloon seated cars.

To the best of my understanding this design allows intercity ambience and rapid boarding for local ”hop on hop off” traffic to coexist, perfect for Britain’s railway except we never been able to do it on our legacy routes.

I'd call infeasible, as surely we are going to want to run through services off the end of NPR rather than have the inflexibility of UIC gauge stock?

 

[HSTEd]

I'd call infeasible, as surely we are going to want to run through services off the end of NPR rather than have the inflexibility of UIC gauge stock?

Leeds to Liverpool is not exactly a short journey though.
Especially with calls at Bradford, Manchester Airport and Warrington.

And as I said it's relatively cheap to at least reach York assuming HS2-E goes through

 

[Bletchleyite]

Leeds to Liverpool is not exactly a short journey though.

It's not, but you are going to want to continue off NPR to Newcastle or beyond, or Scarborough etc. NPR is effectively replacing north TPE pretty much in its entirety, and achieving the same as HS2 does - allowing the classic lines to be used for improved local services instead.

You might also want diversionary ability.

There is therefore no case for captive stock.

 

[Bevan Price]

No, because my point is that there’ll be capacity over Standedge for Hope Valley freight to be diverted.


That is unlikely to be a useful diversion. Most of the Hope Valley freight serves Hope, Peak Forest, Tunstead, etc. Getting paths through the Manchester suburbs would not be easy, and add unnecessary extra mileage onto many freight services. Reopening Peak Forest - Matlock - Derby would be the only sensible (but very expensive) way to make significant freight reductions on the Hope Valley.