Possibly Byelaw 19.The usual legal framework for dealing with ticketless travel (NRCoT, Penalty Fares, Byelaw 18, RoRA) doesn't cover the situation of travelling with a ticket but without a reservation. So there isn't a criminal penalty under any of those for failing to have a reservation.
The strictest possible reading of part (vi) of the Byelaws definition of "ticket" could be used to argue that you'd be in breach of Byelaw 13(1)(i) or 19 by boarding a reservation compulsory service without a reservation. But I doubt that any train company would think of trying to argue that.
In practice, the penalty is the risk of being denied boarding and/or being told to leave the train at the next station.
No, because the whole purpose of the compulsory reservations appears to be to eliminate capacity being used in excess of the number of seats. As others have noted, it is more about being able to access the train itself than board without a seat.Would the effective 'penalty' on boarding a train with compulsory reservations (without holding a valid reservation) be having to stand for all or part of a potentially lengthy journey, if all the reservations were taken and in use?
I can't see how (from a non expert view of the ticket conditions) you can be charged for a new ticket unless you're travelling on a train your ticket is not ordinarily valid on.
That doesn't appear to make sense. The new ticket wouldn't have a reservation either so it would be no more valid that the ticket already held.
Which is odd because all the information on the trains recommends that, if you've found yourself onboard and don't have a reservation, you go onto the website and book a reservation from the next station.
Correct if train was 100% compulsory reservation they could only sell a new ticket with a valid reservation, otherwise new ticket would not be valid with conditions required
That seems quite hypothetical. I very much understood the conversation to be about what, concretely, can or will be done right now by train companies operating under the ticketing system we actually have.Depends on how you ticket things.
If you have an airline style fares system, the ticket and reservation are one and the same thing (i.e. all tickets are Advances, effectively). Therefore a ticket for the 10:00 has no validity on the 10:30, and the passenger would thus be treated as if they had joined the train without a valid ticket.
If you have a system like we have now, where the ticket and reservation are separate entities, there does not appear to be any viable penalty because the ticket is valid. Control would be by refusing boarding at barriered stations, and perhaps asking you to leave at the next station and using reasonable force if you don't (i.e. conventional trespass).
That seems quite hypothetical. I very much understood the conversation to be about what, concretely, can or will be done right now by train companies operating under the ticketing system we actually have.
The individual item, not the transaction, must be over £100 in order for section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act to apply, just for your information.Thinking about it, if say someone purchased three £35 tickets with reservations and a train Operator failed to deliver (say one seat was missing), and reservations were part of the purchase, then being over £100 the customer could request a credit card chargeback for non performance.
No person shall:
- enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice:
- indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category
The former sounds like complete bunk to me, although I am happy to accept that it is an accurate recollection of the correspondence in question.
Indeed. Mostly they just want to run their trains safely, and ideally on time.I’m sure there will be stories of guards on a power trip causing problems for passengers (sometimes justifiably so) but for the most part, in practise the idea is to get people to sit in an appropriate seat, stick to the guidelines and get on with their day.
Guards USUALLY aren’t out there to cause issues so they tend to find a seat for passengers or at absolutely worst, help them book one on the next service and make them alight at the next station and wait.
Avanti asks you to reserve a seat, yes, but yesterday I was posting on a different thread to the effect that they don't mandate it, and say that they'll try to meet your travelling requirement if they can:I thought Avanti and LNER ask you to reserve a seat if you don't hold a reservation.
We have reduced the seating capacity on our trains. Therefore, we strongly recommend you book your place on your preferred train by using our website or app. Once a train reaches the social distance seat capacity set, we remove it from our booking platforms.
If you have not booked a place, we’ll do our best to help at the station, but we can’t guarantee you’ll be able to board your preferred train. In this instance, we’ll do our best to get you on the service immediately before or after your preferred train. If you have any questions when boarding, then our station team are on hand to help.