What journey would these fares from Wimbledon be the best fares for?

[alistairlees]

I was looking at these fares:
http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=WIM&dest=0797
which are from Wimbledon to Zones U23 and cost £5.20 or £4.90 (depending on route)

What journeys would they be best value on? Whenever I look at a journey wholly in Zones 2 and 3 (Wimbledon is in Zone 3), such as Wimbledon to Gipsy Hill, there are better value point to point fares available such as these Anytime Day single fares for £3.20 or £2.50 (depending on route): http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=WIM&dest=GIP

I'm assuming that the fare to 0797 is valid via the North London Line (Willesden Junction etc.) to Stratford, avoiding London Zone 1, though I can't get journey planners to return that.

I'm pretty sure I'm missing something obvious!

 

[ag51ruk]

These are Underground only fares, aren't they? So not valid on National Rail services except to get to Wimbledon for the start of the journey.

Edit - although I see there are two routes, and the 'Via Underground' is slightly cheaper. So no idea!

 

[Paul Kelly]

The fares are valid for a journey starting at Wimbledon and ending with one or more legs on either an Underground, DLR or interavailable National Rail line in Zones 2 or 3. The fares routed ANY - PERMITTED include a National Rail leg by any permitted route to any suitable interchange station in Zones 2 or 3 (arguably also not passing through lower zones on the way, although that isn't documented anywhere!). The more obvious journeys would be ones like Wimbledon to Brixton interchanging at Vauxhall, or Wimbledon to Oval interchanging at Elephant & Castle (although neither of those will appear in journey planners due to the lack of suitable fixed links in the data).

As I understand it, the fares routed VIA UNDERGRD/DLR must be used wholly on an Underground, DLR or interavailable National Rail line in Zones 2 or 3. So they would be most useful for journeys starting on the District Line at Wimbledon and heading towards Earls Court.

Wimbledon to Gipsy Hill wouldn't be valid at all as there is no Underground leg to the journey. Wimbledon to Stratford via the North London Line wouldn't show up in journey planners as-is, but you could easily make it appear by including a short Underground or DLR leg at the Stratford end. E.g. Wimbledon to West Ham - see attached. I would argue that it is still valid just for the journey to Stratford, as you can theoretically make the interchange to Underground there, and there is no compulsion to use the U-zone part of the ticket.

 

[alistairlees]

The fares routed ANY - PERMITTED include a National Rail leg by any permitted route to any suitable interchange station in Zones 2 or 3 (arguably also not passing through lower zones on the way, although that isn't documented anywhere!).

Thanks Indigo2. I have just had a discussion with someone else on exactly the same question of validity as you mention above and I have bolded. Even though it isn't documented I think it's a reasonably commonsense assumption that it isn't valid to pass through Zone 1.

 

[alistairlees]

The more obvious journeys would be ones like Wimbledon to Brixton interchanging at Vauxhall, or Wimbledon to Oval interchanging at Elephant & Castle (although neither of those will appear in journey planners due to the lack of suitable fixed links in the data).

As I understand it, the fares routed VIA UNDERGRD/DLR must be used wholly on an Underground, DLR or interavailable National Rail line in Zones 2 or 3. So they would be most useful for journeys starting on the District Line at Wimbledon and heading towards Earls Court.

Wimbledon to Gipsy Hill wouldn't be valid at all as there is no Underground leg to the journey. Wimbledon to Stratford via the North London Line wouldn't show up in journey planners as-is, but you could easily make it appear by including a short Underground or DLR leg at the Stratford end. E.g. Wimbledon to West Ham - see attached. I would argue that it is still valid just for the journey to Stratford, as you can theoretically make the interchange to Underground there, and there is no compulsion to use the U-zone part of the ticket.

Thanks for the sample journeys. I had also noticed the lack of fixed links at many so-called interchange stations! Balham is another example.

"fares routed VIA UNDERGRD/DLR must be used wholly on an Underground, DLR or interavailable National Rail line..." is a new one on me. It seems logical (in the context of the other fares and routes) and might be in the data (I've yet to look). Probably lots of these legacy fares should just be replaced by TfL fares.

 

[bb21]

I did mention this in a different thread. The Any Permitted fare must not pass through lower numbered zones as all inboundary train-tube fares must cover all the zones passed through in the U-zone description regardless of which leg travel in that zone took place. This is documented somewhere, in the Knowledgebase iirc but I can't check atm.

Route 998 is simply NR TIS's way of issuing a wholly LUL/TfL fare so has no validity on National Rail services except on interavailable routes.

For this purpose, LO services are treated in the same way as NR routes.

 

[alistairlees]

I did mention this in a different thread. The Any Permitted fare must not pass through lower numbered zones as all inboundary train-tube fares must cover all the zones passed through in the U-zone description regardless of which leg travel in that zone took place. This is documented somewhere, in the Knowledgebase iirc but I can't check atm.

Route 998 is simply NR TIS's way of issuing a wholly LUL/TfL fare so has no validity on National Rail services except on interavailable routes.

For this purpose, LO services are treated in the same way as NR routes.

Thanks for the reply. After reading it several times still not quite sure what you mean by: "as all inboundary train-tube fares must cover all the zones passed through in the U-zone description regardless of which leg travel in that zone took place" !

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think he is saying that the rule about not going into lower zones applies both to the zonal part of the journey (covered by the ZONE Uxyz destination) and the non-zonal part (i.e. between the origin and interchange station), which would otherwise be subject to normal permitted route rules.

 

[alistairlees]

Thanks Indigo2. Makes sense...

 

[bb21]

That's correct by Indigo2.

Inboundary train-tube (mixed-mode) fares are priced entirely on a zonal basis on one fare scale so where you change modes does not matter as long as all zones travelled through are covered (as indicated by the U-zone part).

Outboundary fares are priced on an add-on basis, so you can have any zonal combination depending on where you change your mode of travel and where Underground services are required. These can be created by adding the fixed add-on amount to the fare between origin and interchange station, or may already exist in the fares database in some cases. Where fares already exist which satisfy the journey requirements, they must be used instead of manually creating one.

For an illustrative example,

• Kingston (Zone 6) to Earl's Court via interchange at Richmond should be issued as Kingston - Zone U2356 Londn (despite only needing Underground services in Zones 2-4). Kingston - Zone U234* Londn fares cannot (should not) be issued.
• Kingston (Zone 6) to Earl's Court via interchange at Wimbledon should be issued as Kingston - Zone U2356 Londn (despite only needing Underground services in Zones 2-3). Kingston - Zone U23* Londn fares cannot (should not) be issued.
• Shepperton (outside zonal area) to Earl's Court via interchange at Richmond should be issued as Shepperton - Zone U234* Londn. There is no need to include validity in Zones 5 and 6.
• Shepperton (outside zonal area) to Earl's Court via interchange at Wimbledon should be issued as Shepperton - Zone U23* Londn.

 

[alistairlees]

Thanks bb21 that's very helpful.