What next for Hull Trains 180's?

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180zephyr

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hi all,

heard that hull trains are replacing their adelantes with class 802 IEPs (like the ones for future GWR west country services) from 2018ish

any ideas where there gonna go?
 
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cjmillsnun

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hi all,

heard that hull trains are replacing their adelantes with class 802 IEPs (like the ones for future GWR west country services) from 2018ish

any ideas where there gonna go?

Grand Central IIRC
 

ac6000cw

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Given that ATW (or whoever is the Welsh TOC at the time) runs the only other Alstom-built DMU fleet in the country, would it make sense to use some of them to replace the (expensive to run) loco-hauled North-South Wales trains ?

On the occasional rides I've had on them, I've always been impressed - the closest any DMU has come to a proper 'InterCity' ambience.
 

180zephyr

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Why only four? GWR have five.

dunno why, but tht means there are 5 surplus to go somewhere
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Given that ATW (or whoever is the Welsh TOC at the time) runs the only other Alstom-built DMU fleet in the country, would it make sense to use some of them to replace the (expensive to run) loco-hauled North-South Wales trains ?

On the occasional rides I've had on them, I've always been impressed - the closest any DMU has come to a proper 'InterCity' ambience.

so if they have 5x180, they could parhaps make all services on the 2 hourly cardiff-holyhead service? then, sister company chiltern could have an extra 2 6-car sets. the freed 175s (and 168s) could then replace class 150/153/158s on rural lines so that the sprinters can replace pacers. an interesting idea?
 

sprinterguy

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Why only four? GWR have five.
If four is enough to replace three HSTs and provide an additional spare for service resilience, then there is no reason for them to take on five.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Given that ATW (or whoever is the Welsh TOC at the time) runs the only other Alstom-built DMU fleet in the country, would it make sense to use some of them to replace the (expensive to run) loco-hauled North-South Wales trains ?
I personally think that the whole fleet of fourteen 180s would sit well with the Welsh franchise if they were able to get hold of them, given the wonders that a focused maintenance regime at a dedicated depot has wrought on the once similarly unreliable 175s (similar dedicated attentions from Bounds Green and Old Oak depots seem to have reaped some benefits on the 180s already, of course).

They'd be well suited to Cardiff - Holyhead and Manchester - Cardiff services alongside the 175s, in my opinion, also allowing a lot of the 2-car 175s to be doubled up on services as required.

Seeing as Grand Central are looking to keep hold of a good number of them though, unfortunately it's an unlikely proposition.
 
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YorkshireBear

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You would surely want to do some mods to them to regear for lower max speed running. 5 car 125mph units might be a waste on those routes.
 

Philip Phlopp

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dunno why, but tht means there are 5 surplus to go somewhere
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


so if they have 5x180, they could parhaps make all services on the 2 hourly cardiff-holyhead service? then, sister company chiltern could have an extra 2 6-car sets. the freed 175s (and 168s) could then replace class 150/153/158s on rural lines so that the sprinters can replace pacers. an interesting idea?

If they were to transfer to the Welsh franchise, they would certainly allow the franchise to meet the Draft Welsh RUS aspiration of providing either 2 or 5 extra carriages on services to Manchester. There would be no cascading, they would provide simple additional capacity.

I've no idea about your Chiltern idea. The Class 175 units are not compatible with Class 168 units. Chiltern are receiving additional Bombardier Turbostar stock in due course from TransPennine, and may receive additional Class 172 stock from the GOBLIN electrification.

There would be no moving of other stock. Class 158 units in Wales can't be cascaded currently as they're the only ETCS Level 2 fitted units.
 

sprinterguy

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They are getting all five
Brian
Ah, fair enough: The FGW franchise agreement doesn't make that clear, I assume because that fifth unit isn't required to be sub-leased back to FGW after December 2016. I'm actually surprised that they're taking on all five.
 
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180zephyr

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If they were to transfer to the Welsh franchise, they would certainly allow the franchise to meet the Draft Welsh RUS aspiration of providing either 2 or 5 extra carriages on services to Manchester. There would be no cascading, they would provide simple additional capacity.

I've no idea about your Chiltern idea. The Class 175 units are not compatible with Class 168 units. Chiltern are receiving additional Bombardier Turbostar stock in due course from TransPennine, and may receive additional Class 172 stock from the GOBLIN electrification.

There would be no moving of other stock. Class 158 units in Wales can't be cascaded currently as they're the only ETCS Level 2 fitted units.

i see, so if the 180s would be used for extra capacity, rather than replacing the WAG train, then there would be no sprinter cascades or extra chiltern sets.
 
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If four is enough to replace three HSTs and provide an additional spare for service resilience, then there is no reason for them to take on five.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I personally think that the whole fleet of fourteen 180s would sit well with the Welsh franchise if they were able to get hold of them, given the wonders that a focused maintenance regime at a dedicated depot has wrought on the once similarly unreliable 175s (similar dedicated attentions from Bounds Green and Old Oak depots seem to have reaped some benefits on the 180s already, of course).

They'd be well suited to Cardiff - Holyhead and Manchester - Cardiff services alongside the 175s, in my opinion, also allowing a lot of the 2-car 175s to be doubled up on services as required.

Seeing as Grand Central are looking to keep hold of a good number of them though, unfortunately it's an unlikely proposition.

Aren't Grand Central and Arriva both owned by Deutsche bahn? If so then it is possible that if Arriva retain the Wales and Borders franchise in 2018 then the 180's could be transferred from Grand Central with an order for Bi-mode AT-300's as replacements (possibly as an add on to the Edinbrugh open access order?)
 

180zephyr

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Aren't Grand Central and Arriva both owned by Deutsche bahn? If so then it is possible that if Arriva retain the Wales and Borders franchise in 2018 then the 180's could be transferred from Grand Central with an order for Bi-mode AT-300's as replacements (possibly as an add on to the Edinbrugh open access order?)

do they have the open access guaranteed? I thought the Edinburgh proposal was rejected by the DfT?
 

Brian Aylott

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Aren't Grand Central and Arriva both owned by Deutsche bahn? If so then it is possible that if Arriva retain the Wales and Borders franchise in 2018 then the 180's could be transferred from Grand Central with an order for Bi-mode AT-300's as replacements (possibly as an add on to the Edinbrugh open access order?)

The 180s are owned by Angel Trains
It's their decision of course to whom they are leased
Brian
 

Robbies

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Could the 180's not go to XC to do the Cardiff - Nottingham services and replace the class 170's to go to Chiltern?
 

jayiscupid

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If they were to transfer to the Welsh franchise, they would certainly allow the franchise to meet the Draft Welsh RUS aspiration of providing either 2 or 5 extra carriages on services to Manchester. There would be no cascading, they would provide simple additional capacity.

I've no idea about your Chiltern idea. The Class 175 units are not compatible with Class 168 units. Chiltern are receiving additional Bombardier Turbostar stock in due course from TransPennine, and may receive additional Class 172 stock from the GOBLIN electrification.

There would be no moving of other stock. Class 158 units in Wales can't be cascaded currently as they're the only ETCS Level 2 fitted units.

Is it likely that Grand Central are already in talks with Hitachi about replacing their mixed fleet with IEPs? There must be huge benefits in having all the long distance operators using the same fleet and removing the diesel running under the wires?
Having ridden from Manchester to Cardiff several times when the train has been crowded I can only think it would benefit from 5 car 180s. Not to mention the improvements in reliability the fleet could benefit from having one depot look after all the Alstom Coradia fleet.
Is there enough commonality between the 180 and 175 to allow a 4 car 180 fleet and allow some 2 car 175 to become 3 car?
 
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180zephyr

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Could the 180's not go to XC to do the Cardiff - Nottingham services and replace the class 170's to go to Chiltern?

possiably, but XC have 11x2car and 18x3car 170s and they don't often work in multiple, so 14 180s (or 5 after grand central have their share) won't be enough sets to replace them. good idea though, as XC is notoriously crowded!
 
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Is it likely that Grand Central are already in talks with Hitachi about replacing their mixed fleet with IEPs? There must be huge benefits in having all the long distance operators using the same fleet and removing the diesel running under the wires?
Having ridden from Manchester to Cardiff several times when the train has been crowded I can only think it would benefit from 5 car 180s. Not to mention the improvements in reliability the fleet could benefit from having one depot look after all the Alstom Coradia fleet.
Is there enough commonality between the 180 and 175 to allow a 4 car 180 fleet and allow some 2 car 175 to become 3 car?

Another advantage to Grand Central replacing 180's with Bi-mode AT-300's is that AT-300's are 140mph capable while the 180's are not, so would have to be replaced if the ECML was upgraded to 140mph running anyway.
 

180zephyr

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Is it likely that Grand Central are already in talks with Hitachi about replacing their mixed fleet with IEPs? There must be huge benefits in having all the long distance operators using the same fleet and removing the diesel running under the wires?
Having ridden from Manchester to Cardiff several times when the train has been crowded I can only think it would benefit from 5 car 180s. Not to mention the improvements in reliability the fleet could benefit from having one depot look after all the Alstom Coradia fleet.
Is there enough commonality between the 180 and 175 to allow a 4 car 180 fleet and allow some 2 car 175 to become 3 car?

possiably, as angel trains own both the 175s and the 180s, but there are some differences between the untis, for example 175s have 450hp per engine and 180s have 750hp

this could be rectified by an engine swap but then it starts to get VERY VERY EXPENSIVE.

the best scenario in my opinion would be either the 180s replacing 175s, in turn replacing ATW sprinters, then cascaded to provide extra capacity on XC turbostar routes

or, as a final option, if there were to be a franchise shuffle, the cardiff-nottingham could be part of the wales and borders franchise, and ATW could then use 180s for this, and XC could keep the turbostars to strengthen birmingham-stansted services (I have taken the service a few times, enough to tell you that 2 coaches is not enough!)
 

aformeruser

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Is there enough commonality between the 180 and 175 to allow a 4 car 180 fleet and allow some 2 car 175 to become 3 car?

I heard that option was looked at when Northern loaned the 180s to create 6 x 4 car hybrids limited to 100mph but it would have required ATW to loan 3 of the 3 car 175s in exchange for getting some 158s, which was a sticking point.
 

Big Chris

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You do have 12 intermediate cars in the HT 180's and 11 2 car 175s at ATW, could be a case to upgrade all the 2 car 175 to 3 car and have a new 3 car set. Just because engines are 750 hp doesn't mean they have to use all 750hp or for that matter is there enough grunt in a 175 for an un-powered trailer if it has all its engine gubbins removed?
 

sprinterguy

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possiably, but XC have 11x2car and 18x3car 170s and they don't often work in multiple, so 14 180s (or 5 after grand central have their share) won't be enough sets to replace them. good idea though, as XC is notoriously crowded!
Pairs of 2-car 170s do work in multiple quite commonly on Cardiff - Nottingham services, and 170s are also used on Birmingham - Leicester & Stansted services, so 180s wouldn't have to replace all of them...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could the 180's not go to XC to do the Cardiff - Nottingham services and replace the class 170's to go to Chiltern?
...However, let's think about getting some additional 170s on Birmingham - Leicester/Stansted services before anybody thinks about sending them anywhere else! :p

Plus as per the topic of this thread, only five 180s are actually up for grabs towards the end of this decade, so it's a bit of a moot point.
 
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Aws87024

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You do have 12 intermediate cars in the HT 180's and 11 2 car 175s at ATW, could be a case to upgrade all the 2 car 175 to 3 car and have a new 3 car set. Just because engines are 750 hp doesn't mean they have to use all 750hp or for that matter is there enough grunt in a 175 for an un-powered trailer if it has all its engine gubbins removed?

It would be easy enough to software limit the engines power to match that of the 175's.
 

jimm

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Plus as per the topic of this thread, only five 180s are actually up for grabs towards the end of this decade, so it's a bit of a moot point.

The date given by Hull Trains last September for the expected entry into service of bi-modes was 2020 and they still haven't confirmed an order.

The TPE order is now presumably ahead of any potential HT sets in the queue, and these may fall even further down the pecking order if an extra batch of GWR AT300s is also ordered soon.

http://www.hulltrains.co.uk/about-u...nsultation-for-high-speed-units/#.VwfdjMe23IE
 

Clarence Yard

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The key date for the release of the Hull cl.180 is the December 2019 timetable change day. That is when they are expected to be returned to Angel as they have another user (GC) lined up.

The exact order of the TPE/HT AT300 sets is yet to be determined but the Hull sets therefore must arrive before Dec 2019. That order will be decided in the next month or two when the Hull contract is finalised. They will probably be to the same specification, the only real difference being the HT sets will have a compo car as their first class business is greater.

The potential GW AT300 order (which isn't what has been rumoured) won't affect the pecking order as they will be part of a different procurement process and may well be assembled in a different country to the TPE/HT sets.

HT, GW and GC are reasonably well aligned regarding the 180 sets and their little ways and the main challenge for the HT 180 fleet in the next year or so is when they lose their OOC base as that depot is progressively turned over to HS2 during 2017/8.
 

D365

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The key date for the release of the Hull cl.180 is the December 2019 timetable change day. That is when they are expected to be returned to Angel as they have another user (GC) lined up.

Is it confirmed that Grand Central will be taking on the four Hull Trains 180s in addition to the Great Western five?
 
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