What Rolling Stock would you propose for the Northern ITT

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by 47802, 30 May 2015.

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  1. 47802

    47802 Established Member

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    Well its not like there's enough stuff on Northern Rolling stock already :lol: so I thought I would add another one.

    My Option 1

    120 new Electric/Diesel Bi-Modes to Regional Spec, 30 x 3 car, these would take over existing 185 services both Diesel and eventual Electric services. The bi-modes would also take the proposed Liverpool - Man Airport service via Warrington.

    Would allow 6 car Man Airport - Blackpool services in the peak, other Blackpool Services would use upgraded 319's.

    Possibly limited number of Battery Electric's if suitable routes can be found

    Cascaded 170's to Calder Valley Services, and cascaded 156's 158's to services such as Carlisle - Newcastle, Sheffield - Lincoln.

    150 concentrated on shorter urban routes possibly given metro config and toilet removed for more seating.

    Any 153's retained reformed to 2 cars.

    No D78


    My Option 2

    120 x Class 172 type DMU in 2 and 4 car formations with urban Medium Distance config, eg. like current LM 172's, Take over such as all main Manchester Calder Valley Services, Chester via Northwith etc.

    Possibly limited number of Battery Electric's if suitable routes can be found

    Cascaded 170's work Diesel Regional routes plus selected others.

    150 concentrated on shorter urban routes possibly given metro config and toilet removed for more seating.

    Regional electric trains required 350's from TPX, or highly upgraded 319's given 321 demonstrator style upgrade with new traction package, Air Con and 2+2 seating with tables, possibly also changed to 3 car.

    Any 153's retained reformed to 2 cars.

    No D78


    Fell free to comment and criticise, as the most hated poster on here these days apparently <( and what's the betting the winning bid is somewhat different.
     
    Last edited: 30 May 2015
  2. XCTurbostar

    XCTurbostar Member

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    Here we go again.. :p How much am I betting that we won't get off the first page before a certain 5-coach unit from the southern region is mentioned.
     
    Last edited: 30 May 2015
  3. ExRes

    ExRes Established Member

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    I'd definitely go for bi-mode, to help I would be happy to donate a battery charger which does AA an AAA and could be integrated with the diesel engines on Pacers
     
  4. John S2

    John S2 Member

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    Stock should meet the following criteria:
    1) Majority of seats align with windows
    2) Seats have sufficient cushion, not the concrete ones currently in class 333
     
  5. superalbs

    superalbs Member

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    Loco-hauled 442s? :lol:

    Seriously, it isn't that bad of an idea is it?
     
  6. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Damn, beat me to it. In that case while the porcine aviation is being proposed, can we have Class 47s to do the hauling? ;)
     
  7. 47802

    47802 Established Member

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    I believe 442's are barred from the Northern ITT anyway but not TPX, lets not mention them again there is enough stuff about them as it is.
     
  8. Drsatan

    Drsatan Established Member

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    And can we scrape together some cash to convert the wiring to allow for loco-haulage? :lol:

    Face it, as much as we'd like to save them, the 442s will be turned into can openers once they're withdrawn from service. Whether the 442s should have even been transferred across from SWT in 2007 is another matter entirely...
     
  9. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

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    Some comments:

    3 coach units are totally inadequate for all TPE routes. Thry need the equivalent of at least 4 coaches of standard class seating - and even 6 coach units would be desirable on most routes if they have to contain first class areas.

    Calder Valley route cpuld be added to future electrification scheme when it needs new units.

    For ease of diagraaming, any TOC is unlikely to want two different varieties of Class 319 (or any unit train). Reducing them to 3 coaches would be silly, because many stations are only long enough for 4 coach formations.

    Sadly, DfT will never allow the huge cost of so many new units.
     
  10. LeeLivery

    LeeLivery Member

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    Someone stole my hypothetical idea from the 442s back to SWT thread ;)
     
  11. Northern Pacer

    Northern Pacer Member

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    DID SOMEONE SAY 442s???? :D

    As long as it's not a cast off from the south (unlikely) I'll be alright with it.
     
  12. 47802

    47802 Established Member

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    Well 120 new carriages are specified so if they don't deliver on that its effectively breaking an election promise.

    As far as I am aware there is no requirement for 1st class on TPX services that Northern take over, 3 carriages may be more use on the Blackpool run as 2x4 is too long for some platforms on that route but 2x3 is OK.
     
  13. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

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    Yes, but 2x3 would be no use for Liverpool to Manchester Victoria or Wigan, and single 3 coach units would be too small.
     
  14. Northern Pacer

    Northern Pacer Member

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    So why not have a mix of 2 car and 3 car units, similar to how London Midland do with their 172s
     
    Last edited: 30 May 2015
  15. 47802

    47802 Established Member

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    So you have 4 coach units for those routes its not difficult Scotrail are ordering 3 and 4 car electrics. In any case the Blackpool Regional Express Trains are likely to be different to the Blackpool stoppers and those used on the Liverpool - Man Vic service, if 319's were used on the Blackpool regional express service they would need to be highly upgraded to include Aircon, in reality I suspect its more likely that new or newer units will be used, going for a Bi-mode Regional Express train would allow a single type train to take over all Regional Express services (Ex TPE) with a single train type regardless of whether the route Electric or Diesel.
     
    Last edited: 30 May 2015
  16. Northern Pacer

    Northern Pacer Member

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    Bloody hell, new units for the north?! You've got to remember that the DfT couldn't give less of a poo about the north, we've still got 1986 decommissioned buses running round!
     
  17. 47802

    47802 Established Member

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    True but they were supposedly overruled by Government ministers, and Osbourne has got his pet project with the Northern Powerhouse.
     
  18. RichmondCommu

    RichmondCommu Established Member

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    I like the OP's idea of Bi-Mode units and the SNCF currently operate regional Bi-Modes built by Bombardier. The only issue is the units that I have described are by all accounts very heavy which would of course incur high track access charges from NR.
     
  19. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

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    Would the route and stopping patterns for the route that TPE use their 350s on suit either class 800s (if any non electrified section is added) or class 801s if all electric?
     
  20. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
    I would have said so myself - Manchester Scotland is in my mind an IC Route, not a commuter service. an 801 gueared for 110mph with less first and more standard in 6 car formation would be ideal. This provides enough space for everyone!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    More ideal still would be an order for around 50 baby pendos with micro buffet, 5.5 coaches of Standard and half of first. These could relace voyagers on everything but the North Welsh Coast and also work Manchester Scotland. In terms of anything else, most 185s stay where they are now but maybe more 6 car workings, made doable by the cascade of Scottish 170s to Northern Regional work incl York Blackpool, leeds Sheffield Fasts etc. 170s arnt suitable for the Cumbrian Coast or S and C but Carlisle Newcastle would be fine, and if route cleared to Stranrare and the GSW a joint pool shared between Northern and SR could work all these turns. The 120 new vehicles could then be all commuter or mid distance unit allowing Pacers to go and sprinters to be shuffled. As ATW seam interested in D78s then maybe let them have more and cascade some 150s to Northern.
     
  21. ExRes

    ExRes Established Member

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    Well i'll be, I never knew that, if only someone had mentioned it on here at some stage ..........

    Meanwhile, in the South West we really have all the cutting edge trains imaginable
     
  22. MidlandMainlie

    MidlandMainlie Member

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    Option 1 regional bi-mode type units looks like the best option to me. Would also help to convince ROSCO's and other financiers that the trains have a long term future and aren't going to be rendered surplus to requirements by future electrification if the diesel generators could be removed to become regional EMU's.

    Also a regional bi-mode unit could be useful for other franchises like for example a three/four car bi-mode unit with 3rd rail pick up shoes (and a well for a pantograph) capable of running in multiple formations would be ideal for SWT services to Exeter. Such a unit could run on 3rd rail to Basingstoke, OHLE to Sailsbury if and when that happens and Diesel power beyond Sailsbury.
     
  23. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    The first thing to consider is the requirement for Northern to provide regional standard trains on certain routes. The new order could provide this but an alternative could be cascaded 170s from Scotrail with the necessary improvements like plug sockets and wi-fi. The 170s are in 3 car formation currently but they could be reformed to 2/4 car if required.

    Another thing to consider is only the oldest DMUs in the Northern fleet have double doors so it would probably be sensible to order new trains with double doors, so Northern don't eventually finish up with a fleet of diesel trains which mainly have single doors at the ends of carriages.

    Ideally I think the best thing would for a new build be a versatile design so that it's suitable for a variety of routes. Maybe something like a diesel-electric version of a 170 with 23.8m carriages in 3 car formation with SDO, corridor connections, regional 2+2 seating (but in a fairly high density layout.) That way in single car formation it can probably go on any route and it can be used doubled up on certain routes.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Remember there's different carriage lengths as well as different train lengths. A 4 car 319 only provides around 20 extra seats over a 3 car 323 due to the 319s having shorter carriages and an extra connection. However, stations like Salford Crescent can take a 142m train currently (142m is about what a 6 car 185 or 6 car 323 is in length) but can't take a 160m train (which is about what an 8 car 319 or 350 is in length.)
     
  24. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

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    It's a shame that Siemens don't make the 444s any more as a 444 in AC only (344?) would suit the TPE Manchester-Scotland route. Apart from needing a 380 style cab I can't think of any other regs that would rule out that design. What's the maximum line speed on the route?
     
  25. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    110mph for non-tilting stock and 125mph for tilting stock.
     
  26. Haydn1971

    Haydn1971 Established Member

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    Given its the Pacers that need to go, probably the best approach is to figure out how a internal cascade would displace the Pacers.

    Pacer style units are still needed in my opinion for short or otherwise uneconomic routes - This is where I see the D-trains fitting in but in addition to the 120 unit allocation.

    Earlier Sprinters 150/153/155 are getting old, the later 156/158's aren't that much younger. The former are more likely to be run into the ground because of increasing maintenance costs, the latter will probably survive into the franchise after next so will need some major work to keep them fit for purpose. New interiors, new toilets, heating and cooling, mechanical/electrical fixes, potential for a trolley service, passenger information systems and disability improvements. Possibly even reorganising such that 3 & 4 car units are in fixed formations, to make it easier to provide a single accessible toilet in one of the 4 cars, perhaps even some premium seating (doesn't have to be first).

    On that basis, it could be argued that any new diesels would need to service a frequent commuter type role rather than as a semi-fast role, but needs the flexibility to cascade in later life. So is be looking at 23m long sprinter profile units in fixed 3, 4 & 5 car formations with 1/4 & 3/4 doors and through unit connections - providing in the initial state, a TPE style mix of table and airline in the middle with the carriage ends used for providing higher capacity seating, accessible areas and cycle space - clearly marked on the outsides of the new units. The middle compartments should have the ability to seal off for future proofing as a premium class cabin.

    Returning to the 150/153/155 units, it would be easy to do a soft refurb, paint job, seat covers, minor maintenance, easy to do upgrades where possible to take them into the 2020's before removal from service. I'm assuming further electrification cascades and further DMU orders for other franchises will enable their removal.
     
  27. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    Surely, something like the Siemens Desiro Verve or Bombardier Adventra which can be built for speeds up to 125mph would be better for the TPE Manchester - Scotland routes?

    The reason for my above suggestion is allowing for the fact any possibility for Network Rail allowing the Pendolino's to run at 140mph and that being the case any trains running at 110mph, would need to be able to run at 125mph to keep the same timings I suspect.

    For the other TPE services, I would suggest something like the Hitachi ATR300, which has more diesel power than the class 800's, so would be more suitable on any high climbs on any of the other TPE routes.

    The Class 350's, could then be passed to London Midland with the class 156's pass back to Northern.

    On the subject of replacing the class 150/153/155 units, I would look at the previously mentioned bi - mode idea for the local services.

    The above is just my own ideas, but I doubt any of it will happen.
     
  28. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    With some services transferring from TPE to Northern it's expected not only that Northern will stop loaning 156s to TPE but that TPE will loan 185s to Northern until Northern get their 'Regional Express' rolling stock sorted.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    It's off-topic but the front page of the Observer today claims civil servants warned Cameron not to extend Help to Buy to Housing Association homes as it would cause more problems than it would solve, so it's not just in the DfT that there were disagreements between government ministers and civil servants.
     
  29. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Ahem, the NXEMUs won't have the tilt capability which is necessary on this section, to run at speeds above 110mph. The Hitachi AT300 (Class 800 series) won't tilt, the TPE electric fleet we are discussing probably won't require tilt and further into the future, HS2 classic-compatibles certainly won't.

    No, all AT300s (including the initial Class 800 build) make use of the same MTU power packs - the diesel engines on the Class 800 don't need to operate at full power in normal service.

    It's unlikely for now that we'll see more tilting trains ordered; I don't see why else you would suggest two different express fleets.

    These units are known to be in use for an interim period, they're going to be passed on back; that much is guaranteed.
     
  30. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    I am going to have to correct there, the AT300 will use a higher rated power pack. I suggest that you read http://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...d-as-firstgroup-preferred-supplier-for-at300s and Rail 771. Details on the higher rated power output for the route to Plymouth etc.. has also been mentioned in a recent Modern Railways magazine and below is the details from the Wikipedia page on the AT300:

    In March 2015 First Great Western (GWR) agreed to acquire 29 bi-mode Hitachi AT300 (Class 800 variant) subject to government approval expected in June 2015. The trains, 22x5 and 7x9 sets are HST replacements on services in and to the southwest of England. They will have more powerful engines to cope with the gradients in Devon and Cornwall and bigger fuel tanks for the longer distances to Plymouth and Penzance. The trains would use overhead electric power between Paddington and Newbury: the current planned limit of electrification on the Westbury route.[12]

    Where in my post that I mention about tilt?
     
    Last edited: 31 May 2015
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