What travel is currently allowed by the legislation?

[Bletchleyite]

That would be useful to have confirmed.

This is well worth a read and appears to confirm this as being the case - care homes being the real big issue (but on the way down):

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/888254/COVID19_Epidemiological_Summary_w22_Final.pdf

It's a weekly and incredibly detailed report, published on a Thursday, here:

National COVID-19 surveillance reports

National COVID-19 surveillance reports, including weekly summary of findings monitored through various COVID-19 surveillance systems.

www.gov.uk

 

[yorksrob]

This is well worth a read and appears to confirm this as being the case - care homes being the real big issue (but on the way down):

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/888254/COVID19_Epidemiological_Summary_w22_Final.pdf

It's a weekly and incredibly detailed report, published on a Thursday, here:

National COVID-19 surveillance reports

National COVID-19 surveillance reports, including weekly summary of findings monitored through various COVID-19 surveillance systems.

www.gov.uk

Thanks for the information !

 

[Starmill]

A private business, of course, can refuse any custom it wishes without giving a reason, provided there isn't evidence it was for racist, sexist etc reasons.

The question is if it is in breach of the agreement with the Government - I suspect it is not.

Exactly. It's a criticism of bad behaviour by company management in which government may be complicit. I'm not saying I agree with this particular criticism, but, as far as it goes, this is entirely true to form.

 

[Starmill]

In normal times, the idea that a train company could just decide that it didn't want certain customers' business would be preposterous.

Same applies to 101 other train company decisions, but we're as powerless to do anything about them as this.

 

[Skymonster]

Same applies to 101 other train company decisions, but we're as powerless to do anything about them as this.

Well in the case of EMR's check boxes customers are not powerless - they can just lie and tick the box that says they are a key worker. Realistically, without barrier and on-train checks, the chances that anyone will be called out is remote. And what would the penalty be? The day a TOC staff member outright refuses someone travel on the supposition they are not a key worker (especially if they are trying to get home with no other transport available to them) will will be a landmark I suspect no one will want to reach.

 

[Bikeman78]

GA's website has the same nonsense They either don't know or don't care, both of which are deeply troubling.

I'm rapidly approaching the state where I say 'hey railway, you know that approx £4000 I spend with you each year? You clearly don't want my business anymore, so I'm over here, buying a car with it.'

At the moment, the government is handing over lots of money to run empty trains around. That cannot continue for ever. People will get a nasty shock when the money stops if the passengers don't come back.

 

[xc170]

Well in the case of EMR's check boxes customers are not powerless - they can just lie and tick the box that says they are a key worker. Realistically, without barrier and on-train checks, the chances that anyone will be called out is remote. And what would the penalty be? The day a TOC staff member outright refuses someone travel on the supposition they are not a key worker (especially if they are trying to get home with no other transport available to them) will will be a landmark I suspect no one will want to reach.

Check boxes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the moment, the government is handing over lots of money to run empty trains around. That cannot continue for ever. People will get a nasty shock when the money stops if the passengers don't come back.

If the commuters don't come back in droves, it could make operations much cheaper. Imagine a situation where you could run a Saturday service with all trains 8-car on the south WCML all week, for example, and redeploy some of the 350s elsewhere. It would save a fortune.

 

[Skymonster]

Check boxes?

See #118 in this topic regarding the seemingly mandatory requirement from EMR for a customer to confirm they are a key worker or travelling to work before below allowed to buy a ticket.

 

[xc170]

See #118 in this topic regarding the seemingly mandatory requirement from EMR for a customer to confirm they are a key worker or travelling to work before below allowed to buy a ticket.

Unbelievable.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Well in the case of EMR's check boxes customers are not powerless - they can just lie and tick the box that says they are a key worker. Realistically, without barrier and on-train checks, the chances that anyone will be called out is remote. And what would the penalty be? The day a TOC staff member outright refuses someone travel on the supposition they are not a key worker (especially if they are trying to get home with no other transport available to them) will will be a landmark I suspect no one will want to reach.

It's already happened - a man with a set of golf clubs was thrown off an Anglia train because the driver didn't think his journey was necessary! See

Could Byelaw 13 be used to restrict train travel to specific groups of people e.g. Keyworkers?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-travel-is-currently-allowed-by-the-legislation.204411/ Firstly, there is nothing in legislation that states only key workers are allowed to use public transport (and, incidentally, key workers are no different from anyone...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bikeman78]

If the commuters don't come back in droves, it could make operations much cheaper. Imagine a situation where you could run a Saturday service with all trains 8-car on the south WCML all week, for example, and redeploy some of the 350s elsewhere. It would save a fortune.

Agreed 100%. It would simplify the operation a lot. However, fewer trains running means fewer drivers and guards, fewer trains to maintain so fewer people required in depots etc etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed 100%. It would simplify the operation a lot. However, fewer trains running means fewer drivers and guards, fewer trains to maintain so fewer people required in depots etc etc.

True, it wouldn't be great for jobs.

I think this situation (or part-way there) is very, very likely, to be honest. If you write off Fridays, as there's already considerably reduced commuter demand, I reckon a situation where London based office professionals (who are the majority of commuters on the south WCML, certainly from stations north of Watford Jn, where, and south of where, it tends to get slightly more blue-collar) only go in say 2 days a week is a very, very likely evolution of the situation. If those days are mixed up a bit (and I don't see any particular reason for people to prefer any of the 4 remaining days in particular) then this would mean a sustained reduction in commuter demand, which because commuters don't pay the full cost of their travel will actually save money.

Dropping to an all day clockface service might be a bit much to ask, but ending up in a situation where it's 8-car all day but you have to add another 4 to services out of Euston between 1630-1845 or so (but still on the standard pattern), and maybe add a couple of 8-car Watford shuttles as peak extras, is to me an entirely feasible outcome.

 

[sjpowermac]

Well done to ‘TransPennine Express’: exemplary wording here:

“The government guidelines on social distancing means there will be space for as little as a tenth of the usual number of passengers on the railway, which for us at TransPennine Express means our capacity is limited to around 15 to 20 people per train carriage, so please only travel if you really have to.”

Buy Cheap Train Tickets | Book Train Tickets | TransPennine Express Trains

View train times and buy train tickets in advance to any destination in Great Britain. Book train tickets now with TransPennine Express - no booking fee

tpexpress.co.uk

No mention of key workers or any other restrictions. Very refreshing to see a TOC treating customers as people who can think and judge for themselves, whilst making a polite request to take the current situation into account.

No tick boxes on their ‘Buy Tickets’ screen either. I checked, but didn’t purchase since I’m happy to wait for the TOCs to feel a bit more comfortable about things before I make a journey.

A genuine ‘well done to TPE’

 

[E100]

Do people have nay thoughts on when travel to see parents / relatives by train will be allowed? Currently I do not have an alternative means of transport and obviously the current guidance is not (and rightly so IMO) encouraging this. No doubt like many on this forum who use the train for non-work reasons it cannot come soon enough. My personal expectation is that this will start to be allowed once we are into Level 2 so around August / September based on the current trajectory.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do people have nay thoughts on when travel to see parents / relatives by train will be allowed? Currently I do not have an alternative means of transport and obviously the current guidance is not (and rightly so IMO) encouraging this. No doubt like many on this forum who use the train for non-work reasons it cannot come soon enough. My personal expectation is that this will start to be allowed once we are into Level 2 so around August / September based on the current trajectory.

It's allowed by law now if it isn't feasible to walk, cycle or drive there, but some TOCs seem to be saying otherwise. Which TOC would be involved in your journey?

 

[Huntergreed]

Do people have nay thoughts on when travel to see parents / relatives by train will be allowed? Currently I do not have an alternative means of transport and obviously the current guidance is not (and rightly so IMO) encouraging this. No doubt like many on this forum who use the train for non-work reasons it cannot come soon enough. My personal expectation is that this will start to be allowed once we are into Level 2 so around August / September based on the current trajectory.

If you live in England, this is allowed now provided you have no other alternative. The messaging isn't clear, but this is allowed by law.

 

[yorkie]

I am somewhat perturbed and very disappointed at the messaging displayed on the EMR website when any attempt is made to buy a ticket.

View attachment 78913

I have a particular problem with the second bullet “My travel is essential because I am a key worker, or a worker not able to work from home.” This seems to be a case of EMR making up rules for itself and not adapting to the latest situation, as the current laws and guidelines do not prohibit travel by public transport, even for leisure purposes, if using other forms of transport is not viable. It is also concerning that lying - ticking all of the boxes when they don’t all apply - could be used against a passenger should it ultimately be proven that they [for example] are not a key worker.

You could send an FOI to the DfT and ask if they have given EMR permission to do this

Have you tweeted EMR also?

I encourage people to purchase tickets from a third party and not from EMR.

 

[E100]

It's allowed by law now if it isn't feasible to walk, cycle or drive there, but some TOCs seem to be saying otherwise. Which TOC would be involved in your journey?

If you live in England, this is allowed now provided you have no other alternative. The messaging isn't clear, but this is allowed by law.

Entirely agree that it is allowed by law currently and that I can't legally be stopped. I think the thing is I would like to abide by the spirit of the guidance and be reasonably responsible (unlike a certain government advisor), which from what I can gather isn't still saying use rail for leisure.

 

[yorkie]

Do people have nay thoughts on when travel to see parents / relatives by train will be allowed? Currently I do not have an alternative means of transport and obviously the current guidance is not (and rightly so IMO) encouraging this. No doubt like many on this forum who use the train for non-work reasons it cannot come soon enough. My personal expectation is that this will start to be allowed once we are into Level 2 so around August / September based on the current trajectory.

Your question does not make sense and I think you must have meant to say "encouraged" rather than "allowed"? and the answer could well be that they do not encourage the use of public transport for potentially another 6 months or so; maybe even longer. We just don't know.

Entirely agree that it is allowed by law currently and that I can't legally be stopped. I think the thing is I would like to abide by the spirit of the guidance and be reasonably responsible (unlike a certain government advisor), which from what I can gather isn't still saying use rail for leisure.

That's your choice but this thread is to discuss what travel is allowed. I don't have a car (and proud of that fact) and I am not going to incarcerate myself in my local area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Entirely agree that it is allowed by law currently and that I can't legally be stopped. I think the thing is I would like to abide by the spirit of the guidance and be reasonably responsible (unlike a certain government advisor), which from what I can gather isn't still saying use rail for leisure.

The present guidance on gov.uk says you can use rail for leisure if walking, cycling and driving are not an option for that journey. So if you're a car owner and driver you probably should stay off the trains entirely at present, but if you're not and it's miles away...

It's the TOCs that seem to be saying otherwise.

 

[Huntergreed]

Entirely agree that it is allowed by law currently and that I can't legally be stopped. I think the thing is I would like to abide by the spirit of the guidance and be reasonably responsible (unlike a certain government advisor), which from what I can gather isn't still saying use rail for leisure.

You are completely entitled to take a train journey, and provided it's your only option, you wear a mask and remain socially distant, then this is the responsible thing to do to look after your mental wellbeing and remain safe whilst travelling. Trains aren't being run for key workers (even if the TOC's and certain government officials think they are)

 

[greyman42]

You are completely entitled to take a train journey, and provided it's your only option, you wear a mask and remain socially distant, then this is the responsible thing to do to look after your mental wellbeing and remain safe whilst travelling. Trains aren't being run for key workers (even if the TOC's and certain government officials think they are)

I am not aware that you have to wear a mask.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not aware that you have to wear a mask.

You're requested to do so but it is not legally mandatory.

 

[yorkie]

I am not aware that you have to wear a mask.

You don't. If anyone wishes to discuss this matter further, please use the Cloth masks scarves and bandanas to be encouraged with no compulsion thread

 

[E100]

Your question does not make sense and I think you must have meant to say "encouraged" rather than "allowed"? and the answer could well be that they do not encourage the use of public transport for potentially another 6 months or so; maybe even longer. We just don't know

Apologies yes - I meant to say encouraged.

The post was moved from another thread and happy for this to be moved again to a more appropriate thread.

I don't have a car (and proud of that fact) and I am not going to incarcerate myself in my local area.

I strongly empathise with this viewpoint (alongside other restrictions on our hard fought liberties) though I don’t take it currently. As time goes on I may do so for the sake of my mental health. I think my view comes from the perspective if we all did that then it may become a bit chaotic And could worsen the situation though maybe if it was confined to only those without cars (such as you and me) then it’d be a non-issue.

 

[_toommm_]

Well done to ‘TransPennine Express’: exemplary wording here:

“The government guidelines on social distancing means there will be space for as little as a tenth of the usual number of passengers on the railway, which for us at TransPennine Express means our capacity is limited to around 15 to 20 people per train carriage, so please only travel if you really have to.”

Buy Cheap Train Tickets | Book Train Tickets | TransPennine Express Trains

View train times and buy train tickets in advance to any destination in Great Britain. Book train tickets now with TransPennine Express - no booking fee

tpexpress.co.uk

No mention of key workers or any other restrictions. Very refreshing to see a TOC treating customers as people who can think and judge for themselves, whilst making a polite request to take the current situation into account.

No tick boxes on their ‘Buy Tickets’ screen either. I checked, but didn’t purchase since I’m happy to wait for the TOCs to feel a bit more comfortable about things before I make a journey.

A genuine ‘well done to TPE’

In my experience, TPE have been a little more lax on that front. The guards have occasionally mentioned the key worker thing, and cordoned off the 1/3 of the carriage next to the driving cab.

They have had revenue inspections though -I think they’ve had them at Manchester as they’re exclusively using one platform the Hope Valley services, and they’ve definitely had revenue inspection for ALL services at York.

 

[Butts]

Any Key workers that need to hire a Car Avis are currently knocking them out from £10 per day. An added bonus is the excess is reduced to £100 for these bookings. ( no need to take out their extortionate waiver or buy a standalone one)

Three sizes at £10, £15 or £20 day.

Just need your ID or "letter".

 

[sjpowermac]

In my experience, TPE have been a little more lax on that front. The guards have occasionally mentioned the key worker thing, and cordoned off the 1/3 of the carriage next to the driving cab.

They have had revenue inspections though -I think they’ve had them at Manchester as they’re exclusively using one platform the Hope Valley services, and they’ve definitely had revenue inspection for ALL services at York.

Thanks for that. Fair play to them with the revenue inspection! I think the wording on the TPE website is spot on

 

[_toommm_]

Thanks for that. Fair play to them with the revenue inspection! I think the wording on the TPE website is spot on

Definitely, and they occasionally prompted me on the app to only travel if it is essential (the correct wording again). Revenue are very nice aswell, they just don’t scan tickets at the minute, and I’m guessing they won’t mark paper tickets.