What will happen to Northern, ATW & GWR if the Class 769 "FLEX" fails?

[47802]

Talking of CAF, I wonder would they be persuaded to, instead of doing more single-mode filthy DMUs, produce a bi-mode for Northern? That would be perfect, as I've said many times before, for the Lakes and Furness lines as a self contained service group.

Your obsession with Bi-modes knows no bounds, lets not forget Northern is a cheap and cheerful franchise, other than maybe a Battery EMU for Windermere, likely simpler and cheaper for Northern to take more cascaded DMU's or 195's lets not forget the 769's are really covering for DMU's and the fact they are Bi-mode is a useful side effect.

 

[Bertie the bus]

And perhaps CAF, who I'm sure will be letting the Northern procurement team know that extra units could be bolted onto the current order should they so wish, and of course DfT allow (not that they've much of a choice as things stand).

What in the 2 1/2 years of the Arriva Rail North franchise gives you the impression they are going to order more new trains than they have committed to ordering?

The superb, no money spent 'as new' refurbs perhaps?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your obsession with Bi-modes knows no bounds, lets not forget Northern is a cheap and cheerful franchise, other than maybe a Battery EMU for Windermere, likely simpler and cheaper for Northern to take more cascaded DMU's or 195's lets not forget the 769's are really covering for DMU's and the fact they are Bi-mode is a useful side effect.

I'm just anti-DMU. I think we need to stop running DMUs under the wires, and a load of brand new ones having been ordered to run under wires is nuts.

The other option is to cut Barrow back to Lancaster and Windermere to a pure shuttle to Oxenholme and run a Class 319 Manchester Airport-Carlisle service to connect with them which might not be an entirely stupid idea.

 

[samuelmorris]

There's a big difference between the Grayling-esque 'Bimodes are the solution to all problems, even ones we haven't even created yet' and just simply a desire to drag the railway kicking and screaming away from a reliance on diesel power. If you extrapolate current rate of progress, half the network in the entire country will still be using diesel DMUs so long after the sale of diesel cars has been banned that you never see any on the roads any more. Wherever it's possible to reduce DMU usage, that should really be followed, and if that means bi-modes, so be it. The only problem is that it's relatively new technology at least in the UK rail industry and will take some time to get right. With the current progress of electrification, though, I see it as an inevitability. It's just unfortunate that the particular bimode discussed in this thread is such a mess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a big difference between the Grayling-esque 'Bimodes are the solution to all problems, even ones we haven't even created yet' and just simply a desire to drag the railway kicking and screaming away from a reliance on diesel power. If you extrapolate current rate of progress, half the network in the entire country will still be using diesel DMUs so long after the sale of diesel cars has been banned that you never see any on the roads any more.

Precisely. If the railway is still using fume belching DMUs all over the place when all the bus and coach companies have switched to electric (which won't take them long - 20 years at most I reckon) there will be a massive case for a Serpell-style job. And I don't want that.

We need the wires, of course, but in the interim we need the bi-modes. And the Class 195s and 196s, much as they are nice looking units, should never have been ordered; they should all have been bi-modes.

Remember a train typically lasts 30-50 years...

 

[Non Multi]

GWR are using some of their Class 769s to replace Class 387s on Paddington suburban runs initially, so I suppose a fall-back for non-delivery of Class 769s for GWR is to take unconverted Class 319s in the interim. Bad news for Turbo replacement on the North Downs route though.....

Nope. Unless the plan from earlier in the year has been binned - 769s replace Turbos (where possible), Turbos cover for the 12x 387s being fitted out at Ilford for HEX duties. Most of the remaining Turbos should head Westwards when the final phase of Crossrail happens in Dec '19 (345s to Reading). GWR don't want to train more drivers than necessary on yet another multiple unit type. They still have ongoing issues getting enough drivers for the Electrostar diagrams.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Most of our electricity comes from fossil fuel power plants and making batteries involves digging holes in the ground, shipping the raw material halfway around the world to be refined, then being shipped to the battery factory and then shipped off for sale. A lot of damage to the environment and diesel fumes there.

 

[reddragon]

Most of our electricity comes from fossil fuel power plants and making batteries involves digging holes in the ground, shipping the raw material halfway around the world to be refined, then being shipped to the battery factory and then shipped off for sale. A lot of damage to the environment and diesel fumes there.

It did 10 years ago. Now most power is emission free. Coal is almost gone and already summer months are mostly renewable energy.

OK, digging out battery materials involved mineral extraction but so does oil , gas & coal. The key difference is that fossil fuels are burnt & cause pollution, battery materials are used for 10's of years and then recycled.

 

[reddragon]

At this moment: -

Renewables = 38%, fossil = 33%, Nuclear = 24% + imports

 

[LOL The Irony]

Nope. Unless the plan from earlier in the year has been binned - 769s replace Turbos (where possible), Turbos cover for the 12x 387s being fitted out at Ilford for HEX duties. Most of the remaining Turbos should head Westwards when the final phase of Crossrail happens in Dec '19 (345s to Reading). GWR don't want to train more drivers than necessary on yet another multiple unit type. They still have ongoing issues getting enough drivers for the Electrostar diagrams.

Engineer has a point. If you train the drivers and guards on them now, they'd need less training when they become 769's.

 

[Dye]

For the latest National Grid status.
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

 

[samuelmorris]

Most of our electricity comes from fossil fuel power plants and making batteries involves digging holes in the ground, shipping the raw material halfway around the world to be refined, then being shipped to the battery factory and then shipped off for sale. A lot of damage to the environment and diesel fumes there.

A large proportion, but certainly not most, and what is fossil, at least in summer is also CCGT, which I would argue is rather better than thousands of individual diesel engines.

 

[LOL The Irony]

At this moment: -

Renewables = 38%, fossil = 33%, Nuclear = 24% + imports

Nuclear isn't exactly "clean" energy in my eyes. They should just get on with making hydrogen safe to transport and introduce HMU's and then nobody can moan about "dirty polluting diesels" (that sounds like something out of Thomas The Tank Engine) being under wires.

 

[samuelmorris]

Right, but when the hydrogen is produced from electrolysis from the same sources of power? That's not really a debate for this thread anyway, but even though Hydrogen may have some benefits long-term, it would be much preferable to power trains direct electrically than have to cart any sort of fuel around all day.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I'm just anti-DMU. I think we need to stop running DMUs under the wires, and a load of brand new ones having been ordered to run under wires is nuts.

The other option is to cut Barrow back to Lancaster and Windermere to a pure shuttle to Oxenholme and run a Class 319 Manchester Airport-Carlisle service to connect with them which might not be an entirely stupid idea.

The problem is South Cumbria has a group of particularly vocal MPs, and it would push the narrative that 'Tories hate Cumbria'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A large proportion, but certainly not most, and what is fossil, at least in summer is also CCGT, which I would argue is rather better than thousands of individual diesel engines.

Zero coal at the minute, which I think is something to be proud of as that's by far the muckiest.

 

[pemma]

Zero coal at the minute, which I think is something to be proud of as that's by far the muckiest.

How much cleaner is biomass over coal? There also seems to be a fair bit of burning general household waste and using the limited energy created through that process.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How much cleaner is biomass over coal?

It isn't necessarily *cleaner* but it is carbon neutral as the trees you plant to grow the wood to burn take CO2 out of the atmosphere as they grow.

The big problem with coal is that it's releasing CO2 that's stored in the dead dinosaurs underground.

The ideal is to stop burning anything, but the first priority has to be to stop burning dead dinosaurs in all their forms.

 

[WatcherZero]

There is a big difference between clean coal (which has been washed and compressed into pellets) often operating with pollution capturing chimneys and dirty coal, particularly the low grade brown coal mined in China.

 

[Non Multi]

Engineer has a point. If you train the drivers and guards on them now, they'd need less training when they become 769's.

The electrified GWML from Paddington to Didcot is driver only operation territory. It would be highly likely that any 319 trained driver would need to be retrained for the modified 769s. They've still got enough Turbo drivers - so that's why they're covering for the 387s.

The DFT didn't want MTR to run the 345s in passenger service to Reading before Dec '19, but that is another option. MTR drivers are currently being trained on 345s on the inner suburban GWML.

 

[Chester1]

How much cleaner is biomass over coal? There also seems to be a fair bit of burning general household waste and using the limited energy created through that process.

It depends on how its sourced. The biomass generators at Drax power station use pellets made from waste sawdust from paper mills and waste pieces from timber e.g. leaves. Making the pellets and shipping them from the US to UK results in a claimed 5/6th reduction because the material would otherwise rot and release CO2 and methane into the atmosphere. A large amount of biomass production is small scale such as one farm using its own waste which would otherwise rot. If trees are cut down for biomass its arguably worse than coal and replanting takes too long to repair the damage. Its a reasonable rule of thumb that EMUs are much better for the environment than DMUs. HEMUs are better if they are using waste hydrogen e.g. Alstom in Germany and Widnes but worse than if the hydrogen is generated using electrolysis because of the low efficiency of the fuel cells (35%).

 

[LOL The Irony]

HEMUs are better if they are using waste hydrogen e.g. Alstom in Germany and Widnes but worse than if the hydrogen is generated using electrolysis because of the low efficiency of the fuel cells (35%)

Well we develop fuel cells like we have done with the battery. The original Nissan Leaf was only useful to a city dweller or an old lady who only used it to go to the shops, bingo, church etc. whereas the new one makes you think twice about buying internal combustion. The same should happen to fuel cells.

 

[snowball]

The big problem with coal is that it's releasing CO2 that's stored in the dead dinosaurs underground.

The ideal is to stop burning anything, but the first priority has to be to stop burning dead dinosaurs in all their forms.

Doesn't coal come from dead trees from the Carbonifereous period, long before dinosaurs?

 

[AndrewE]

Most does, but there is Jurassic coal in Scotland! look up "Brora Coal Formation"
There is also a Cretaceous Lena coalfield, the largest in the world - in Siberia. There is also some in Canada too, apparently, plus Antarctica!

 

[anamyd]

(not my video) it's real!!!

 

[EE Andy b1]

Nice video of non-movement of a 769!!

I'ts been there all week.

 

[LOL The Irony]

(not my video) it's real!!!

Wales aren't getting theirs before December 2019. The power packs are only arriving in 6 months.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Nice video of non-movement of a 769!!

I'ts been there all week.

It needs to be in revenue earning service with all 3 operators before it can be deemed a non failure.

 

[EE Andy b1]

It needs to be in revenue earning service with all 3 operators before it can be deemed a non failure.

Non-movement - it's not moved that we know of under it's own diesel power, since arriving on the Great Central Railway, not non failure!!

 

[Cardiff123]

Wales aren't getting theirs before December 2019. The power packs are only arriving in 6 months.

Do you have a source & link for that info?
ATW Twitter have been saying by April 2019 in last few weeks.
If Dec 2019 is true for Wales, considering ATW were in the queue before GWR, GWR must be getting theirs summer 2020!