What will the Leicester to London scheduled journey time be, following electrification?

[Jamesrob637]

Moderator note: Split from

MML Electrification

And I would assume it has significant over allowance for out of course events, eg crossfeeding adjacent sections in the event of failure / planned or unplanned switch out of feeding station and also in terms of growth either in number of trains or power consumption of trains or perhaps being...

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Will any trains do sub-one hour London to Leicester after electrification?

 

[Roast Veg]

Will any trains do sub-one hour London to Leicester after electrification?

Amost certainly not without other works. The 222s have a quoted acceleration of 0.79m/s/s as I recall, not much slower than any 125mph capable EMU.

 

[paul1609]

Amost certainly not without other works. The 222s have a quoted acceleration of 0.79m/s/s as I recall, not much slower than any 125mph capable EMU.

I'd imagine the problem will mostly be timetabling Midlands Regional Expresses on the Thameslink Main Line south of Bedford and the limited capacity on the short branch line in to St Pancras high Level.

 

[Roast Veg]

Don't forget the Corby Expresses getting in the way of the Nottingham and Derby stoppers!

 

[Robertj21a]

Will any trains do sub-one hour London to Leicester after electrification?

Hasn't it been done before anyway, some years back ?

 

[43066]

I'd imagine the problem will mostly be timetabling Midlands Regional Expresses on the Thameslink Main Line south of Bedford and the limited capacity on the short branch line in to St Pancras high Level.

Nail, meet head .

 

[Jamesrob637]

Hasn't it been done before anyway, some years back ?

I don't know. Some are timed for 62 minutes at present so wasn't sure whether 59 was achievable.

Amost certainly not without other works. The 222s have a quoted acceleration of 0.79m/s/s as I recall, not much slower than any 125mph capable EMU.

Have you seen a 802 accelerate?! Stand on Reading and they really shift out towards London. EMR have an updated version on order which may accelerate even faster.

 

[Domh245]

Have you seen a 802 accelerate?! Stand on Reading and they really shift out towards London. EMR have an updated version on order which may accelerate even faster.

The 804s should be able to match the acceleration/timings of a 222 on diesel (crucially at higher speeds), and should be just as fast as the other 80x on electric.

At lower speeds, the 222 isn't far off an 802 in electric going by Eversholt's graphs, and comfortably beats it on Diesel:
222 (7 car) time to 100kph: ~60 seconds
802 (9 car E) time to 100kph: ~50 seconds
802 (9 car D) time to 100kph: ~90 seconds

 

[Hairy Bear]

Will any trains do sub-one hour London to Leicester after electrification?

You can do it now if it wasn't for the temporary speed restrictions and poor regulation.
But you would also need the meridian to have power on all coaches. Which isn't that often.

 

[43066]

I don't know. Some are timed for 62 minutes at present so wasn't sure whether 59 was achievable.

Easily achievable - even HSTs can gain several minutes over booked if running to line speed.

At lower speeds, the 222 isn't far off an 802 in electric going by Eversholt's graphs, and comfortably beats it on Diesel:
222 (7 car) time to 100kph: ~60 seconds
802 (9 car E) time to 100kph: ~50 seconds
802 (9 car D) time to 100kph: ~90 seconds

They’re impressive bits of kit (so long as all engines are running!). Perfectly suited to the steep gradients and sweeping curves of the MML.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't know. Some are timed for 62 minutes at present so wasn't sure whether 59 was achievable.



Have you seen a 802 accelerate?! Stand on Reading and they really shift out towards London. EMR have an updated version on order which may accelerate even faster.

Indeed. The issue is that acceleration from low speed on the non-stop services is limited to the departure from St Pancras, and there’s not that much opportunity for improvement there. There may well be opportunity elsewhere on the saw tooth profile, but it will be relatively small.

You can do it now if it wasn't for the temporary speed restrictions and poor regulation constraints of the timetable. But you would also need the meridian to have power on all coaches. Which isn't that often.

Corrected for you.

 

[Hairy Bear]

No, I don't think so.
When an empty stone train is turned out in front of a right time express causing 5 mins delay when it could have been on an empty slow line....I call that poor regulation. Get sick of having to brake from line speed so we can follow freights , light engines , test trains, charters all out of their path or routes not set, due to poor regulation from the boxes.
I'm perfectly aware of the timetable contraints with the thameslinks thank you. That's why I don't bother running at linespeed south of Bedford as you know there's 2 Thameslinks to be turned out in front of you.

 

[Bald Rick]

No, I don't think so.
When an empty stone train is turned out in front of a right time express causing 5 mins delay when it could have been on an empty slow line....I call that poor regulation. Get sick of having to brake from line speed so we can follow freights , light engines , test trains, charters all out of their path or routes not set, due to poor regulation from the boxes.
I'm perfectly aware of the timetable contraints with the thameslinks thank you. That's why I don't bother running at linespeed south of Bedford as you know there's 2 Thameslinks to be turned out in front of you.

Poor regulation from your perspective. The signaller will have his/her reasons, and they are usually right.

 

[route101]

Took EMT service last month from London to Sheffield, was a quick run to Leicester even with a few stops. I suppose its quick when its near 5 hours from London to Glasgow.

 

[30907]

Took EMT service last month from London to Sheffield, was a quick run to Leicester even with a few stops. I suppose its quick when its near 5 hours from London to Glasgow.

FYI Leicester is 99 miles from London, Glasgow is 401.

 

[Starmill]

No, I don't think so.
When an empty stone train is turned out in front of a right time express causing 5 mins delay when it could have been on an empty slow line....I call that poor regulation. Get sick of having to brake from line speed so we can follow freights , light engines , test trains, charters all out of their path or routes not set, due to poor regulation from the boxes.
I'm perfectly aware of the timetable contraints with the thameslinks thank you. That's why I don't bother running at linespeed south of Bedford as you know there's 2 Thameslinks to be turned out in front of you.

Surely these are issues which would result in delays. What is under discussion is the principles of the timetable.

 

[route101]

FYI Leicester is 99 miles from London, Glasgow is 401.

Yes of course I know, was very quick and cant imagine living close to London

 

[D6975]

I only recently found out that the class 810s are going to have 4 engines per 5 car set compared to 3 for other 8xx 5 car sets. This will give them a considerably better acceleration (potentially), although I suspect that this is to enable the engines to be run at less than full power in order to reduce maintenance requirements.

 

[Bald Rick]

No,

I only recently found out that the class 810s are going to have 4 engines per 5 car set compared to 3 for other 8xx 5 car sets. This will give them a considerably better acceleration (potentially), although I suspect that this is to enable the engines to be run at less than full power in order to reduce maintenance requirements.

it’s to give them more acceleration. Also, they are shorter coaches, so instead of 3 engines powering 130m of train, there will be 4 engines powering 120metres.

 

[bb21]

I don't know. Some are timed for 62 minutes at present so wasn't sure whether 59 was achievable.

In my commuting days I had one occasion where the northbound 222 did the journey in 60 minutes (7-car it was I think). It was late Christmas Eve (either last one or second last one) and we had a clear run throughout. I imagine sub-one hour is just about doable as things currently stand. Otherwise plenty of occasions the 2031 Derby used to do it in 61-62 minutes with a lightly-loaded 4-car.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I seem to recall Chris Grayling telling his colleagues barefaced lies a couple of years ago when he cancelled the MML electrification scheme. He told us that just one minute would be shaved off London-Sheffield journey times if it was electrified.
Anyone believe that ?

 

[hexagon789]

Anyone believe that ?

Without any infrastructure or linespeed improvements, yes I could on the basis that might be all that can be reliably cut from the timetable.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I seem to recall Chris Grayling telling his colleagues barefaced lies a couple of years ago when he cancelled the MML electrification scheme. He told us that just one minute would be shaved off London-Sheffield journey times if it was electrified.
Anyone believe that ?

I remember that well, but, importantly, he used the word 'could' rather than 'would'.
Something like 'a diesel train could do the journey in one minute less than an electric one'.
Such a diesel train doesn't have to exist at the moment for the statement to be logically true, it's a hypothesis. Similar to saying 'a cure for ---- (name of any terminal illness/disease) could be found'. In both cases, don't get your hopes up...

 

[Bald Rick]

I seem to recall Chris Grayling telling his colleagues barefaced lies a couple of years ago when he cancelled the MML electrification scheme. He told us that just one minute would be shaved off London-Sheffield journey times if it was electrified.
Anyone believe that ?

He wouldn’t have come up with that answer himself, he would have been briefed...

 

[Class 170101]

I don't believe only 1 minute would have been saved. I think 5 minutes between London and Sheffield at least should be achievable.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't believe only 1 minute would have been saved. I think 5 minutes between London and Sheffield at least should be achievable.

It would be easily with a clear run and - crucially - nothing else in the way. But there’s usually something else in the way.

 

[ABB125]

It would be easily with a clear run and - crucially - nothing else in the way. But there’s usually something else in the way.

Build some slow lines then!

(Yes, I know there are some as far as Kettering)

 

[Senex]

He wouldn’t have come up with that answer himself, he would have been briefed...

Indeed, but he was the minister and so he must take ownership of the lie, even if the briefing-note was prepared by some very junior civil servant working in the public affairs department of ministry. But sorry, I was forgetting. Minsters no longer take responsibility for anything these days ...

 

[Verulamius]

Indeed, but he was the minister and so he must take ownership of the lie, even if the briefing-note was prepared by some very junior civil servant working in the public affairs department of ministry. But sorry, I was forgetting. Minsters no longer take responsibility for anything these days ...

I put in a freedom of information request to see the underlying economic case supporting that decision.

I thought that there should be such a report given that there would have been for a decision to proceed.

I have a copy, with bits blanked out, on my computer somewhere.

I put in a freedom of information request to see the underlying economic case supporting that decision.

I thought that there should be such a report given that there would have been for a decision to proceed.

I have a copy, with bits blanked out, on my computer somewhere.

The one minute claim was in that report