What would you like to see in the next Great Western Franchise?

[swt_passenger]

Waterloo to Barnstaple is almost as regular a proposal as XC to Brighton.

Meanwhile in the real world, the likeliest extension is probably a through service to Honiton or Axminster, in addition to whatever the SWR franchisee is doing with their hourly Waterloo trains. This is an option already mentioned in the Western route study as a part of the future "Devon Metro".

 

[pemma]

The ITT for the next Great Western franchise will be released in Feb 2018

As a consultation commenced yet? If not it's unlikely the ITT will be released next Feb.

 

[swt_passenger]

Should they need to have another consultation?
They had one in 2014 and DfT reported on it in 2015. I think you can possibly have too many - at some stage they have to stop talking and do something?
Probably a good way of putting off a decision though...

 

[absolutelymilk]

Is the Great Western ITT (due in February) likely to be released or will the competition be postponed like the Crosscountry one was?

 

[jimm]

There is no GW competition on the horizon. The only thing on the cards at the moment is another GWR direct award franchise to First Group from 2020 to 2022.

 

[Geoff DC]

From The Thread Title: Sleeper service extended to cover Saturdays

 

[Journeyman]

From The Thread Title: Sleeper service extended to cover Saturdays

Extremely unlikely to happen. How many people need to be in Penzance - or anywhere else for that matter - at 7am on a Sunday morning?

 

[Geoff DC]

Lots of people from Cornwall coming back home Saturday night after a day somewhere in the UK - not necessarily London

 

[superalbs]

There needs to be a later service in general on a Saturday for Exeter, be it sleeper or otherwise. The present choice is either the 1920 SW service, or the 2003 GW service. That's a very early time for a last departure, especially because both terminals have later trains on the other days of the week.

 

[jimm]

There is also the 20.30 GWR service to Exeter via Bristol, albeit on a very leisurely schedule, arriving 23.46.

On other days of the week, the engineers are rather less likely to be allowed a long overnight possession, which they can get from a Saturday into a Sunday, courtesy of the generally later start to services on a Sunday morning. A factor which would also affect trying to run a sleeper that night. Even running a 21.03 via the B&H would take an hour out of that engineering window.

By comparison with most other London termini, the GWR 23.30 to Bristol is an exceptionally late long-distance departure for a Saturday night. Last LNER departure north from Kings Cross is on the dot of 22.00 to Leeds, while Euston's last is at 21.43 for Wolverhampton.

 

[Geoff DC]

WOT about those of us who want to get back to Penzance (& The Rest of Cornwall) after 21:30 from PAD ??

How can London to Bristol be called a long distance service it's virtually a commuter service about an hour & a bit from London - Plymouth to Penzance is 2hrs on top of the time from London - that is a 'long distance service'

 

[jimm]

What about the need to give the engineers time to do their work?

 

[Geoff DC]

Speaking purely from a customer perspective Jimm

 

[co-tr-paul]

Discussed for years. There is so much that could be opened up in London etc to do in a day instead of 2 nights in a hotel and 3 days off ! Railtours included !!
Demand is there.
It is a long term goal for many within GWR but as posted recently in NR thread, pathing and staffing would need changing.

 

[CC 72100]

WOT about those of us who want to get back to Penzance (& The Rest of Cornwall) after 21:30 from PAD ??

How can London to Bristol be called a long distance service it's virtually a commuter service about an hour & a bit from London - Plymouth to Penzance is 2hrs on top of the time from London - that is a 'long distance service'

How many other trains commence a 300-mile journey - in which the arrival at the terminus will be later than 2am - after 21:00 on a Saturday night?

I don't doubt that some demand isn't there, but not enough to justify the impact on running such a service at the expense of lost track access time for engineering.

 

[jimm]

Speaking purely from a customer perspective Jimm

A lot more customers would not be very happy if their busy Monday morning peak train gets stranded in the countryside somewhere between the West Country and London, because a rail breaks or a signal or axle counter fails as a result of maintenance not having been done, so that a few people could get a train back to Cornwall late on a Saturday night.

How many times a year would you or anyone else actually want to use this service?

That's the acid test. It's all very well for people to say such and such a thing would be nice to have, but would they use it often enough and in big enough numbers to justify it?

 

[The Ham]

How many times a year would you or anyone else actually want to use this service?

I would suggest fairly few, as most people would probably prefer to stay for a night on Saturday and spend Sunday exploring before returning home.

Even if that night was somewhere on route to shorten the journey the following day (and/or not paying London hotel prices)

 

[IanXC]

I guess if the commercial pressure was such, you could at least provide a service to Exeter on Saturdays. There are multiple diversionary routes this far, and then simply park the stock up as a hotel until the day train service starts.

On the flip side, I wouldn't be surprised if an entire further set was required to take account of the increased availability requirements.

 

[Sleepy]

The Sleeper service on Saturday nights was tried by BR in the 1980's with limited custom. Might be worth trying in high summer but can't see a year round demand for it.

 

[Geoff DC]

How many times a year would you or anyone else actually want to use this service?

Personally, between September & April during the rugby season about 8/10 times + many more friends that I know of who travel between Plymouth & PZ to London (+ places within 2hrs of Llandun)

 

[CMRail]

Why have people got an obsession about extending services to Birmingham? There are more than enough, HS2 would take greater priority and there’s already too much between Oxford and Birmingham as we speak. Who has the money to electrify to Penzance? I get Swansea, but let’s finish Bristol and Oxford before anything.

The current direct award is going to bring a lot with it, 4tph Bristol, 3tph Bristol via Bath peak and 3tph South Wales peak. Also the extensions of shuttles between Swindon and Cheltenham onto London. Crossrail will also mean a rewrite in the service pattern around London.

 

[The Ham]

Why have people got an obsession about extending services to Birmingham? There are more than enough, HS2 would take greater priority and there’s already too much between Oxford and Birmingham as we speak. Who has the money to electrify to Penzance? I get Swansea, but let’s finish Bristol and Oxford before anything.

The current direct award is going to bring a lot with it, 4tph Bristol, 3tph Bristol via Bath peak and 3tph South Wales peak. Also the extensions of shuttles between Swindon and Cheltenham onto London. Crossrail will also mean a rewrite in the service pattern around London.

Currently the frequency between Oxford and Banbury is basically 2tph and then mostly 4 and 5 coach Voyagers, leading to a lack of capacity. Also depending on where people are heading from connections at Reading the wait time can be quite big.

In an ideal world XC would have more capacity, but short of that (which is looking less likely given the delay in that franchise being relet) people look to GWR as a logical option to do so.

 

[tgrb]

From a very personal prospective I’d like to see more direct trains within the GWR franchise - I realise not all of my suggestions are particularly sensible but when having to change and wait sometimes more than 30 minswith two dogs and two children (ok not always with the dogs) makes you think twice about the train sometimes!

Journeys that particularly frustrate me:
Direct Chippenham to Cornwall services (and return) only a couple a day, if you’re going to Cornwall you’ll enevatibly have a load of stuff and moving that round Temple Meads is a right pain in the bottom.

General through services North/South - there is like one service a day that goes from Gloucester via Kemble, Swindon, Chippenham then on to Melksham etc, this would be a useful hourly service in my option.

Getting to Bradford on Avon From Chippenham.....

Getting to Oxford from Chippenham or Kemble - a very long journey and a faff, timings and connections don’t make for a day or evening out, as an extension to this, getting from Kemble to Chippenham to “the Cotswolds” I’m thinking Morton in the Marsh here....

Direct trains from Kemble or Chippenham to Cardiff, have to generally wait ages at Temple Meads it can be quicker via Swindon, doesn’t make for a quick trip to the Lego shop!

More directs to WSM from Chippenham, while this service isn’t terrible, quite a few require changes at Temple Meads which extends the journey to a point the wife wants to take the car, and also there are quite a few service gaps around tea time meaning you either have to go home early or end up with tired grumpy children!!

And do even get me stared on how rediculous the journey times are if I want to get to Newbury/Hungerford/pewsey!!

 

[jimm]

Currently the frequency between Oxford and Banbury is basically 2tph and then mostly 4 and 5 coach Voyagers, leading to a lack of capacity. Also depending on where people are heading from connections at Reading the wait time can be quite big.

In an ideal world XC would have more capacity, but short of that (which is looking less likely given the delay in that franchise being relet) people look to GWR as a logical option to do so.

The only logical thing to do is provide more capacity on XC services - which are not creaking at the seams all day, every day between Banbury and Oxford, no matter how often you suggest this is the case.

There do not appear to be many people who look to GWR as a logical option to serve Birmingham. The idea did not even make the top 10 of routes suggested for consideration for adding to the GW franchise in the recent DfT consultation and it only need a couple of mentions in responses to make that list.

Page 39 here

https://assets.publishing.service.g...l-franchise-stakeholder-briefing-document.pdf

What that page does show is that there was a fair degree of support for GWR running London-Oxford-Banbury to Stratford-upon-Avon as Thames and FGW Link used to do.

Which I would agree with - and which is a whole lot more logical than GWR going to Birmingham. There are substantial tourist markets to target along this axis, which was why Network South East created the former service in the first place in the early 1990s.

 

[Aictos]

Currently the frequency between Oxford and Banbury is basically 2tph and then mostly 4 and 5 coach Voyagers, leading to a lack of capacity. Also depending on where people are heading from connections at Reading the wait time can be quite big.

In an ideal world XC would have more capacity, but short of that (which is looking less likely given the delay in that franchise being relet) people look to GWR as a logical option to do so.

Could not extending the existing GWR Oxford terminators to Banbury help at all?

With the existing Didcot Parkway to Banbury shuttles either staying as they are or extended to start/terminate at London Paddington.

As to the Cheltenham Spa services, has any thought been given to extending them to Wolverhampton/Hereford?

 

[jimm]

Getting to Oxford from Chippenham or Kemble - a very long journey and a faff, timings and connections don’t make for a day or evening out, as an extension to this, getting from Kemble to Chippenham to “the Cotswolds” I’m thinking Morton in the Marsh here....

Assuming you mean Moreton-in-Marsh, how many people would ever want to make such a journey by rail? It takes 45 minutes in a car across the Cotswolds from Kemble. Even with slick connections you would get nowhere near that going all the way round via Swindon, Didcot and Oxford.

Running East-West Rail services beyond Oxford to Swindon and Bristol was a popular suggestion in the DfT consultation report I linked to above.

 

[tgrb]

Assuming you mean Moreton-in-Marsh, how many people would ever want to make such a journey by rail? It takes 45 minutes in a car across the Cotswolds from Kemble.

Yes sorry - a bit early on a Sunday! Like I said at the top of my post, this wasn’t nesessarily suggestions that would get wholesale support, but more right let’s have a day out and go on the train stuff - so more leasuire based requests which I guess aren’t up there on the revenue earning priorities list! Quite often I’ll find myself looking at the GWR map thinking where can we go for a day/afternoon/evening out.

Conversely on the Moreton-in-Marsh example, I’ve recently had quite a few meetings up there, and I would have got the train if it was evening say 30 mins longer, as driving time is dead time, I can work on the train, also if I am with customers and we have dinner or a beer after..... also more environmentally friendly!

I work extensively within the GWR network area, and get the train where I can - London, Bristol, bath, Cheltenham, glouster is dead easy!

I guess my frustration is - 1hr15mins to Paddington - takes much longer and includes much more faff to get somewhere half the distance

 

[CMRail]

London-Bristol

• 1tph Extension to Weston-Super-Mare (via Bath services)
  

London-South Wales

• 3tph off-peak, 2 running to Swansea and 1 to Cardiff Central. Run a mix of 5,9 and 10 car sets.
  
  
• Add additional pullman services to/from Swansea.
  

London/Oxford-Worcester/Hereford

• Due to single line operation, it would be difficult to add additional services along this line. However, if there was sufficient funding for redoubling then it would be worthwhile to increase services to 2tph or 3tp2h working using 5 car units off-peak and 9/10 car units during peak times.
  

London/Swindon-Gloucester/Cheltenham Spa

• If sufficient passenger usage is shown when all Swindon services extend to London, consider a 3tp2h or 2tph frequency, especially at peak times. During peak, a rotation could be considered between calling patterns (i.e skip Reading/Didcot)
  
  
• Consider opportunities to speed journey times for Cheltenham passengers, if a Gloucester South Parkway was to open (unlikely) 1tph could skip Gloucester, and the other terminate at Gloucester.
  

Bristol Area Services

1. At the moment, the class 150/158 fleet are being replaced by class 165/166 fleet. Despite the increased capacity, these units do not have suitable interiors for the services they operate. New stock should be considered with an extra carriage, but 2+2 seating and separate stock for Cardiff-Portsmouth and Bristol-Great Malvern type services.
   
   
2. 2tph services between Bristol and Gloucester, with 1 service per hour extending towards Worcester, giving Ashchurch a hourly service as well as better connections between Gloucester/Cheltenham and Worcester.
   
   
3. Ensure that services between Bristol and Bath are timed well and spaced evenly between each other.
   
   
4. Offer catering on more services that cover longer journeys.

TransWilts and Surrounding Areas

• Services extended to Salisbury, and then onto Oxford. Consider four tracking of Didcot to Swindon, at current there is often congestion.
• Increase frequency to 1tph and introduce new early and late services.

I am unfamiliar with services to and around Devon/Cornwall, therefore will not comment on these services. Fell free to criticise my points within reason.

 

[JamesT]

Could not extending the existing GWR Oxford terminators to Banbury help at all?

With the existing Didcot Parkway to Banbury shuttles either staying as they are or extended to start/terminate at London Paddington.

Although I think more trains from Oxford to Banbury would be a good thing, I wonder how feasible it would be.
Does Banbury have the capacity for additional terminating trains there?
Would GWR need extra stock for a current Oxford terminator to go to Banbury and back rather than being immediately available for the next trip south?
What happens if Oxford is finally electrified? I believe the plan is that it would then be 387s to Oxford, which won't be able to be extended.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although I think more trains from Oxford to Banbury would be a good thing, I wonder how feasible it would be.
Does Banbury have the capacity for additional terminating trains there?
Would GWR need extra stock for a current Oxford terminator to go to Banbury and back rather than being immediately available for the next trip south?
What happens if Oxford is finally electrified? I believe the plan is that it would then be 387s to Oxford, which won't be able to be extended.

The 2015 stakeholder brief stated that following electrification most trains would only run between Oxford and Banbury but there would still be 4 trains in each direction extending to/from Didcot for connections. They’d presumably have been DMUs at the time of writing, but that must be up in the air now with 769s on the official agenda.