What would you like to see in the next Great Western Franchise?

[reddragon]

We're anti Reading because they are paying compared to those from station West of Didcot/Newbury, a pittance and they're rude and arrogant towards those who pay considerably more for their tickets (both season & other tickets) for destinations beyond Reading/Didcot/Newbury.

They seem to think that they're so much more important than anyone else, they're really up themselves.

I'd like to see a "Premium" fare for those who want to use HS or IET(HST) services once the electrification fully kicks in, and a distinctly cheaper fare for the non HS/IET (HST) services, after all that's what SET do for their HS service to St Pancras.

Sorry, you are very narrow minded and sound just like those that you are complaining about!

 

[FenMan]

Quite. Reading is a major interchange. From memory, the stats say there are 4 million interchange passengers a year. I'd say that's an underestimate if anything.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

A probable problem I can see with this idea is that Southeastern can have tickets that say 'Not valid to St Pancras' which basically separates the HS1 service from the 'classic' lines, thus separating them according to route rather than train. GWR wouldn't be able to do the same as their high speed services go to the same station as their non-high speed services. Managing this idea - which, actually, I'm not against - would be a logistical nightmare.

You could do it quite easily and that's by having ticket gates at the entrance to the platforms at Reading rather than its current location. That way you could segregate the HS services from Non HS services and with HSS services going from dedicated platforms the problem should be sorted.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Sorry, you are very narrow minded and sound just like those that you are complaining about!

And you have just proven the point for me. Oh woe is me, I'm being excluded from the HSS trains because I'm only from Reading and I pay so much money...

NO, you pay peanuts compared to those from West of Didcot.

It's high time that you lot at Reading were more respectful to those who pay significantly more into the fare box than you lot.

 

[coppercapped]

We're anti Reading because they are paying compared to those from station West of Didcot/Newbury, a pittance and they're rude and arrogant towards those who pay considerably more for their tickets (both season & other tickets) for destinations beyond Reading/Didcot/Newbury.

They seem to think that they're so much more important than anyone else, they're really up themselves.

Oh dear! The venom is palpable - go and lie down in a darkened room until you feel better.

 

[coppercapped]

You could do it quite easily and that's by having ticket gates at the entrance to the platforms at Reading rather than its current location. That way you could segregate the HS services from Non HS services and with HSS services going from dedicated platforms the problem should be sorted.

I've explained why this is difficult in my post 107.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I'm fine thank you.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I've explained why this is difficult in my post 107.

Only difficult if you have a vested or self interest, in fact you'll try and find every reason why it shouldn't happen under the sun, so you're not inconvenienced.

Sod everyone else who pays more. You want to travel on IEP(HST) which are in GW terms premium services as they have limited capacity, so they should attract a premium rate for those who want to go to Reading.

Supply & Demand.

 

[jimm]

Only difficult if you have a vested or self interest, in fact you'll try and find every reason why it shouldn't happen under the sun, so you're not inconvenienced.

Sod everyone else who pays more. You want to travel on IEP(HST) which are in GW terms premium services as they have limited capacity, so they should attract a premium rate for those who want to go to Reading.

Supply & Demand.

Supply and demand indeed - and the fact of the matter is that the supply of rolling stock for GW services generally, but especially in the Thames Valley, has completely failed to keep up with increased demand for travel by rail, from Reading and everywhere else.

While pretty much every other major route into London has got extra rolling stock in recent years, until the first Class 387s started running, GWR was pretty much operating with the exact same fleet on inner and outer suburban trains that Network South East had in 1993 - which also has to cover work up the Cotswold Line and Reading-Gatwick.

Some tinkering around the edges has been done, such as HSTs on some Didcot and Oxford outer-suburban duties and the return of a few Class 180s, plus leasing the two 150/0s, to free some Turbos for suburban work, but that's about it. So GW has done the best it can with what's available - and that includes using long-distance HSTs to help shift people in the Thames Valley.

It's not just Reading where there is high demand. The 17.49 to Worcester, which had some seating capacity to spare, has called at Maidenhead for some years now to set down commuters there.

A perfectly logical use of finite resources but it appears you'd prefer that the train left London in the middle of the peak with lots of empty seats. Where's the sense in that?

One of the timetable changes from January sees the 17.49 path taken by a 387 to Didcot, with its first stop at Maidenhead, with the Worcester service moving back to 17.52. Even with a switch to the relief lines and a call at Twyford, the 387 gets into Reading at 18.23, just four minutes after the retimed Worcester service. I'd expect GWR will be making every effort to encourage Reading passengers to take that train, along with the people headed to Maidenhead/Marlow and Twyford/Henley.

Maybe you might just give GWR the benefit of the doubt, now that they will soon have more rolling stock available, and wait to see what effect the timetable changes in January and again in December next year have on people's travel habits.

 

[coppercapped]

Only difficult if you have a vested or self interest, in fact you'll try and find every reason why it shouldn't happen under the sun, so you're not inconvenienced.

Sod everyone else who pays more. You want to travel on IEP(HST) which are in GW terms premium services as they have limited capacity, so they should attract a premium rate for those who want to go to Reading.

Supply & Demand.

Your real argument should be with the fares structure which increases the cost/mile for tickets west of Didcot. An annual season from Reading to London Terminals costs £4308 and the same ticket from Reading to Swindon costs £5,364.00. There is no great difference in the distance, it's 36 miles Reading to Paddington and 41 1/4 miles to Swindon. It's only 15% further to Swindon from Reading than to Paddington but the journey costs 25% more.

And this on part of the line which is not so capacity constrained as the approaches closer to London.

Do not aim your wrath at the travellers from Reading but at a fares structure which skews demand.

And DO NOT claim to know how I want to travel. That is the arrogance of ignorance.

 

[JamesRowden]

Only difficult if you have a vested or self interest, in fact you'll try and find every reason why it shouldn't happen under the sun, so you're not inconvenienced.

Sod everyone else who pays more. You want to travel on IEP(HST) which are in GW terms premium services as they have limited capacity, so they should attract a premium rate for those who want to go to Reading.

Supply & Demand.

Have you looked at some real data, here is some (if slightly old):

Figure 3.10 – Top 10 LDHS journeys to or from London Paddington (2007/08)
Flows Journeys (million)
Reading 4.6
Didcot Parkway 1.1
Swindon 1.0
Bristol Temple Meads 0.9
Bath Spa 0.8
Cardiff Central 0.7
Bristol Parkway 0.6
Newbury 0.6
Exeter St Davids 0.4
Chippenham 0.4

Figure 3.12 – Top 10 rail journeys to or from London Paddington in 2007/08 (suburban services)
Flows Journeys (million)
Slough 2.0
Maidenhead 1.6
Oxford 1.5
Ealing Broadway 1.0
Hayes and Harlington 1.0
Newbury 0.6
West Drayton 0.6
West Ealing 0.6
Twyford 0.5
Windsor and Eton Central 0.4

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/rus documents/route utilisation strategies/great western/great western rus.pdf

 

[HarleyDavidson]

10 years old so irrelevant.

 

[JamesRowden]

10 years old so irrelevant?

So how has the demand changed so massively in the past 10 years? I have travelled on the section frequently throughout that period and not noticed a significant change in the distribution of Reading-London and not-Reading passengers.

Stopping 3/4tph worth of Bristol/Wales services at Reading improves connectivity, provides a greater business case for a higher frequency of service between Bristol/Wales and London (of which some won't stop at Reading), and extends journey times by no more than 5 minutes.

 

[JonathanH]

You could do it quite easily and that's by having ticket gates at the entrance to the platforms at Reading rather than its current location. That way you could segregate the HS services from Non HS services and with HSS services going from dedicated platforms the problem should be sorted.

I've explained why this is difficult in my post 107.

It really is quite easy and, in a major interchange like Reading where many of the nearby stations are ungated desirable, to have ticket gates within the station as well as at the entrances. So, you would gate platforms 1 to 3, 4 to 6, 8 to 11 and 12 to 15 all separately within the station and ensure that everyone passing through the station has a ticket as well as those entering. The added benefit of this could be to allow different fares to be charged for different services.

One of the things which doesn't get talked about much with the paperless ticket revolution is some sort of surge pricing for train services.

It seems obvious that you could
a) change from season tickets to some form of stored value wallet - eg with discounts depending on how much funds you commit per year
b) charge a different fare by entry and exit times depending on demand and journey time
c) refund passengers when there are delays

Then you can realisticly charge passengers more for popular services and effectively spread demand away from the high peaks / long distance trains.

 

[JamesRowden]

It really is quite easy and, in a major interchange like Reading where many of the nearby stations are ungated desirable, to have ticket gates within the station as well as at the entrances. So, you would gate platforms 1 to 3, 4 to 6, 8 to 11 and 12 to 15 all separately within the station and ensure that everyone passing through the station has a ticket as well as those entering. The added benefit of this could be to allow different fares to be charged for different services.

One of the things which doesn't get talked about much with the paperless ticket revolution is some sort of surge pricing for train services.

It seems obvious that you could
a) change from season tickets to some form of stored value wallet - eg with discounts depending on how much funds you commit per year
b) charge a different fare by entry and exit times depending on demand and journey time
c) refund passengers when there are delays

Then you can realisticly charge passengers more for popular services and effectively spread demand away from the high peaks / long distance trains.

If there's high demand for long distance trains then run more.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

If there's high demand for long distance trains then run more.

What? And then get into the same trouble that commuter railways like SWR, SN & SET/SER do and that's when it goes wrong and when it does go wrong, it does so generally in a catastrophic manner, which takes hours to remedy if they fix it at all for that day as quite a few SWT/SWR users will attest to.

Sometimes less is more and sometimes you need to price things correctly, so that HSS/HST services are treated as "Premium" & the future 387 electrics are treated as "Lower price" commuter services.

Barriers at the on the bridge should be used to that advantage and it will stop fare evaders too as they'll have to get through several barriers to avoid paying and that'll be tricky.

 

[JamesRowden]

What? And then get into the same trouble that commuter railways like SWR, SN & SET/SER do and that's when it goes wrong and when it does go wrong, it does so generally in a catastrophic manner, which takes hours to remedy if they fix it at all for that day as quite a few SWT/SWR users will attest to.

Sometimes less is more and sometimes you need to price things correctly, so that HSS/HST services are treated as "Premium" & the future 387 electrics are treated as "Lower price" commuter services.

Barriers at the on the bridge should be used to that advantage and it will stop fare evaders too as they'll have to get through several barriers to avoid paying and that'll be tricky.

Making the additional intercity trains not stop at Reading, and creating a timetable that spreads demand evenly on services would mean no need for a complicated fares structure. The present timetable is based around the First Great Western franchise requirement for an every 15 minute service between Swindon and Paddington, no grade separation at Reading and no Crossrail. There should therefore be plenty of room for a smarter timetable. Peak demand should cause the government to invest in extra capacity like the signalling upgrades in progress which should potentially allow a 20tph mainline service in/out of Paddington (up from a present peak of 15tph of which 4tph is Heathrow Express). The Great Western Route Study stated that a grade separated junction at Paddington would potentially allow a 24tph mainline service in/out of Paddington.

The London and South Western Mainline simply needs more capacity.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You really don't understand it do you.

You cannot get anymore trains in & out of Paddington, especially after the 2018 timetable change, unless of course someone actually builds the Heathrow loop, then you "might" get one or two, but nothing of any consequence.

Sometimes less is more and chucking the Reading lot over onto a 387 service is the best long term option and that's done by pricing.

 

[JamesRowden]

You really don't understand it do you.

You cannot get anymore trains in & out of Paddington, especially after the 2018 timetable change, unless of course someone actually builds the Heathrow loop, then you "might" get one or two, but nothing of any consequence.

Sometimes less is more and chucking the Reading lot over onto a 387 service is the best long term option and that's done by pricing.

If there's no capacity for any more intercity trains there's no more capacity for any more 387s. One could run an intercity service where one would otherwise run a Thames Valley service if the demand for the intercity service is greater.

 

[coppercapped]

It really is quite easy and, in a major interchange like Reading where many of the nearby stations are ungated desirable, to have ticket gates within the station as well as at the entrances. So, you would gate platforms 1 to 3, 4 to 6, 8 to 11 and 12 to 15 all separately within the station and ensure that everyone passing through the station has a ticket as well as those entering.

BIG SNIP

There are people complaining on this forum that if one choses the wrong set of stairs at Birmingham New Street then it is necessary to go through two sets of gates when changing trains. The design of the station has been strongly criticised for this feature as it adds an extra degree of hassle which wasn't there before.

And now you are suggesting doing the same thing at Reading...?

You couldn't make it up!

 

[JonathanH]

There are people complaining on this forum that if one choses the wrong set of stairs at Birmingham New Street then it is necessary to go through two sets of gates when changing trains. The design of the station has been strongly criticised for this feature as it adds an extra degree of hassle which wasn't there before.

And now you are suggesting doing the same thing at Reading...?

You couldn't make it up!

No, different - the barriers at New Street you mention involve leaving the 'paid for' area into a space where there is less information and other people passing. I am envisaging one paid for area at Reading but with barriers to specific platform areas to ensure people passing through the station have tickets as well as those entering.

 

[reddragon]

You really don't understand it do you.

You cannot get anymore trains in & out of Paddington, especially after the 2018 timetable change, unless of course someone actually builds the Heathrow loop, then you "might" get one or two, but nothing of any consequence.

Sometimes less is more and chucking the Reading lot over onto a 387 service is the best long term option and that's done by pricing.

Excellent idea! put everyone beyond Reading on hourly 12-car 387s and then we can have a class 800 every 3 minutes from Reading to Paddington

Runs for cover!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

When you pay the premium rate for a premium service and give those travelling long distance priority, then you can travel on them, otherwise travel on the 387.

Or travel on SWR.

 

[The Ham]

Your real argument should be with the fares structure which increases the cost/mile for tickets west of Didcot. An annual season from Reading to London Terminals costs £4308 and the same ticket from Reading to Swindon costs £5,364.00. There is no great difference in the distance, it's 36 miles Reading to Paddington and 41 1/4 miles to Swindon. It's only 15% further to Swindon from Reading than to Paddington but the journey costs 25% more.

And this on part of the line which is not so capacity constrained as the approaches closer to London.

Do not aim your wrath at the travellers from Reading but at a fares structure which skews demand.

And DO NOT claim to know how I want to travel. That is the arrogance of ignorance.

This is probably to do with the old NSE Vs Intercity ticket prices. It is the reason why if you ever use XC passing through Banbury it is often cheaper to split your ticket there.

If you are willing to split your season ticket at Didcot it is £3,144 plus £1,804 which equals £4,948, which is much closer to 15% more (just shy of 16% increase in cost) for 15% further. However you are then limited to those services which do call at Didcot.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And you have just proven the point for me. Oh woe is me, I'm being excluded from the HSS trains because I'm only from Reading and I pay so much money...

NO, you pay peanuts compared to those from West of Didcot.

It's high time that you lot at Reading were more respectful to those who pay significantly more into the fare box than you lot.

I strongly dislike your obvious bitter Hatred for commuters who board at my beloved Reading (amen). Not only is it generalistic, it’s utter nonsense. Respectful? When has every single Reading (amen) commuter disrespected you?

You may pay more for your ticket than Reading (amen) commuters if you live West of Didcot but so you should! You pay less to travel forty miles than you do to travel seventy and that is that, Reading commuters pay an extremely adequate price. If you think it’s unfair move closer to London! And yes, I know it isn’t as easy as that, but you get my point. We pay peanuts for a reason - we don’t linger in their carriages for as long! We pay less because we don’t use them for as long.

We all pay to get transported from a to b without having to walk or put the effort or petrol into driving. Seats are an added bonus. I go first class when travelling by train, I pay extra so I get an increased chance of a seat. If you want an increased chance of a seat then pay extra and get first class tickets like I do as you clearly think that because you travel further than deserve better treatment, or take the time to reserve instead of blaming us Reading (amen) travellers, Mr Davidson. I tell you, toss them respecting you, maybe you should start respecting them?

Rant over.

 

[reddragon]

I strongly dislike your obvious bitter Hatred for commuters who board at my beloved Reading (amen). Not only is it generalistic, it’s utter nonsense. Respectful? When has every single Reading (amen) commuter disrespected you?

You may pay more for your ticket than Reading (amen) commuters if you live West of Didcot but so you should! You pay less to travel forty miles than you do to travel seventy and that is that, Reading commuters pay an extremely adequate price. If you think it’s unfair move closer to London! And yes, I know it isn’t as easy as that, but you get my point. We pay peanuts for a reason - we don’t linger in their carriages for as long! We pay less because we don’t use them for as long.

We all pay to get transported from a to b without having to walk or put the effort or petrol into driving. Seats are an added bonus. I go first class when travelling by train, I pay extra so I get an increased chance of a seat. If you want an increased chance of a seat then pay extra and get first class tickets like I do as you clearly think that because you travel further than deserve better treatment, or take the time to reserve instead of blaming us Reading (amen) travellers, Mr Davidson. I tell you, toss them respecting you, maybe you should start respecting them?

Rant over.

Well said!!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

When you get sworn at (using words that would be deemed to be a Section 5 Public Order Offence) , pushed, jostled, clouted by bags or cases and on one occasion spat at, perhaps you might understand why I think that lot at Reading at pretty much the dregs of human life.

Reading a town that could only be improved by the use of a small nuclear device.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Well said!!

Thank you! I’m glad you appreciated it.

When you get sworn at (using words that would be deemed to be a Section 5 Public Order Offence) , pushed, jostled, clouted by bags or cases and on one occasion spat at, perhaps you might understand why I think that lot at Reading at pretty much the dregs of human life.

Reading a town that could only be improved by the use of a small nuclear device.

Oh Lordy. Spat at! Oh - well I travel from Reading (amen - this armening is going to get tedious) two or three times a week, some times all day on a rover- but I don’t live there; I get the train up from Guildford or Farnborough. I don’t know what the locals are like. But none of the passengers I’ve travelled on have been like that, save for an unpleasant woman who had a go at me for speaking to the first class host for so long - (an extremely polite and showing respect to my elders but also no nonsense and to the point comment in return made her feel embarrassed and shut up - (the Queen’s English accent usually helps) but that’s the max I’ve had to deal with. Unfortunately what you have just described is what you will find on all trains during rush hour. Just be glad the train isn’t full of football fans! Shudder. If I was a guard I’d chuck off any fan who dared to start chanting.

 

[cactustwirly]

Reading a town that could only be improved by the use of a small nuclear device.

Save it for Slough

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Save it for Slough

That the two stations can even be compared is unthinkable!

Slough is a horrible grimy station, Reading (amen) is a mighty palace, my ultimate favourite station loads of platforms both bay and through, wonderful architecture and the footbridge with all the shops is great. Of course, the old Reading station - definitely not amening that one - was horrible - but that is in the distant past.