What's happened to our 323s?

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Captain Speaking

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Went into Manchester this morning from Wilmslow - just missed one train, which comprise nodding donkeys so happy to wait a few minutes for the next - also a bleeding 4-wheel bus train!

Why have Northern nicked our fast, quiet, and comfortable 323s for these apologies for passenger stock? They should never have been conceived in the first place, and it is an absolute disgrace that such scrap is still in service. Only Northern would put up with it!

At least the train I came back on (via the Airport) was a 323!
 
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aformeruser

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There's been 142s on peak time services on the Crewe line since the December 08 timetable change, when extra Airport-Piccadilly services were introduced and the Macclesfield service was extended to Stoke all day.

The 323s are currently being refreshed* so they are less likely to have spare 323s if one fails.

Just be glad Pacers don't form the primary traction on your line.

* New seat covers, replacement floor covering and the destination displays being replaced by blinds - yes that is the right way around! The blinds don't even have all the electric terminus stations included, yet have destinations like Nottingham and Hull included.
 

Wath Yard

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They should never have been conceived in the first place, and it is an absolute disgrace that such scrap is still in service. Only Northern would put up with it!
Really, so the Pacers in service with FGW and ATW are figments of passenger's imagination? Paint them shiny silver and red and employ some serious PR gurus and you would be drooling.
 

aformeruser

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Really, so the Pacers in service with FGW and ATW are figments of passenger's imagination? Paint them shiny silver and red and employ some serious PR gurus and you would be drooling.
In fairness the 142s are the worst Pacers and Northern are the only operator with 142s that haven't had a full refurbishment.
 

shedman

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Well said Captain Chaos!! A pacer bouncing along at 75mph with all the windows open creating a lovely cool breeze on a nice day like today is better than standing around waiting for the next service because yours was cancelled due to failed stock. But where would we be without a weekly pacer rant!!
 
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Captain Speaking

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Much rather a Pacer than no train at all.
But nothing like as good as going by car. Anyone who supports these skips even being ordered, never mind still being in service, doesn't seem to realise it's not 'a Donkey or wait for a later train', it's 'a Donkey or shall I go in my nice top-down car on a lovely day like this?'.


Nice sunny day... This or a Nodding Donkey? Tough choice, eh? But that's what you're competeing with, railboys. People like their cars and it'll take something better than a Donkey to persuade them out of them.
 

aformeruser

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Are Pacers actually hated that much outside of rail enthusiasts circles though?
Yes. Do you think rail passengers like small trains that don't provide a good ride, have very drafty doors and have seating inferior to that on modern buses in a 3+2 style?
 

Captain Chaos

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Well go in your car then. Nothing's stopping you. If I had the choice of going for a drive in an open top sports car or going on whatever you consider to be the most amazing train in the world then I'm probably going by car too. Mostly because it's a nice day for it.

I mean who cares if someone likes their car or not? Most people don't choose to go by train because of the weather.

Please stop trolling.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Yes. Do you think rail passengers like small trains that don't provide a good ride, have very drafty doors and have seating inferior to that on modern buses in a 3+2 style?
You know, I have never actually heard a passenger onboard a Pacer complain about one, and I've been on plenty. They only provide sub-par rides on sub-par track, and I have never noticed the doors to be draughty. Further, I don't find the seating, to be honest, to be that bad, except where it has worn away badly, indeed 144 seating I find to be some of the best around. You also forget that not everywhere has modern buses; and indeed not everyone can afford them over trains!

People need to stop the Pacer ranting now, it's very hyperbolic and boring.
 

sprinterguy

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Nice sunny day... This or a Nodding Donkey? Tough choice, eh? But that's what you're competeing with, railboys. People like their cars and it'll take something better than a Donkey to persuade them out of them.
I would think that a soft-top sports car would be one of the worse choices for getting in and out of central Manchester on a hot, dry day in congested peak hour Manchester traffic. I certainly don't fancy inhaling all that airborne pollution. It would be a different matter on a quiet, picturesque country road but that's not what we're comparing it against here.
 

ANorthernGuard

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They are old, uncomfortable and slow, freezing in winter and too hot in summer

However

you try working the bloody things on a 10 hour shift lol a lot worse than an hour and a half max

seriously tho, Pacers are here for a few years yet so there isn't really much point retreading old ground again and again
 

Michael.Y

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Hmm... £2.30 for 10 minutes on a slightly old, substandard train or £30,000 plus insurance plus licence plus petrol plus road rage plus traffic jams...

I could go on....
 

aformeruser

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You know, I have never actually heard a passenger onboard a Pacer complain about one, and I've been on plenty.
Most Northern Rail users know what to expect before they board the Pacer, so the poor conditions aren't a surprise. I've heard plenty of people sigh or groan when a Pacer pulls in.

The West Country news found plenty of people to complain about Pacers when FGW subleased some 142s.

I have never noticed the doors to be draughty
Lucky you who didn't have to do a journey on a Pacer with the Pacer travelling at 70+mph when the exterior temperature was -12oC. Ice was forming on the inside of the train. The 150s and 156s coped fine on the same line.

They only provide sub-par rides on sub-par track
Oh dear. I didn't know the WCML and ECML were the only lines in the North without sub-par track and then on the WCML and ECML when you get a 125mph train going in the other direction you can really feel a force on a Pacer.

indeed 144 seating I find to be some of the best around
The seating is good but the leg room is abysmal.

You also forget that not everywhere has modern buses; and indeed not everyone can afford them over trains!
British Leyland buses built in the 1970s contained the same type of seating, so even if old buses turn up they've hardly got inferior seating.

indeed not everyone can afford them over trains!
What's wrong with walking short distances? Trains are generally more expensive, except on shorter distances where you may be able to get a £3 off-peak return fare to a station 2 miles away but the bus will cost you £1.90 single.

People need to stop the Pacer ranting now, it's very hyperbolic and boring.
It's only going to stop completely when Pacers are withdrawn. They could be moved to shorter services but that'll just moved where the complaints come from. I can't see 142s replacing 172s on Gospel Oak to Barking would go down well even though it's a more suitable Pacer route than Manchester Victoria to Leeds/Selby via Halifax.
 
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tbtc

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Are Pacers actually hated that much outside of rail enthusiasts circles though?
I've never noticed it - I doubt whether many passengers could tell the difference between a Pacer and a Sprinter (witness the thread recently that had someone in a WHICH survey praising the Virgin service into London Paddington).

Enthusiasts, on the other hand, love a good Pacer rant.

(To complete the cliche bingo I should point out that the toilets on Voyagers smell a bit and that everything was sparkling back in the BR days :lol:)
 

Captain Chaos

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Let's face it though. All of us love and hate different things.

I love 170's, HST's and 158's. I hate Voyagers. But I don't see the point in starting a thread stating such.
 

aformeruser

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I've never noticed it - I doubt whether many passengers could tell the difference between a Pacer and a Sprinter (witness the thread recently that had someone in a WHICH survey praising the Virgin service into London Paddington).
I don't think that is representative of most passengers, more a small proportion similar in size to the number of enthuaists.

When I last did Manchester-Preston on TPE I heard about 5 people say before the train arrived "It's a TransPennine Express service. It'll be packed."

I've also heard passengers commenting on wrong operator names being on trains - for instance the Merseytravel 142s saying Merseyrail on them when Merseyrail is another operator.

I also heard one passenger saying to a guard of a 175 at Newton-le-Willows "Is this the Victoria train" to which the guard replied "No. This is the Arriva service to Piccadilly" to which the passenger replied "Why are you using a First North Western train then?"
 

Captain Speaking

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Please stop trolling.
If you think pointing out that a nodding donkey is an unacceptable form of rail transport is 'trolling', then you just don't get it.

Of course you won't hear passengers complaining on the train about Donkeys. Life's too short! They are just less likely to choose the train next time than if it was a 323.

323s aren't exactly luxurious, but they have adequate seats and legroom (Donkey's don't), they are fast with quick accelleration (unlike Donkeys), they are far quieter than Donkeys, they don't bounce up and down and nod like Donkeys do, and they are not draughty like Donkeys.

Nodding Donkeys were never an acceptable rail vehicle. In the 21st century it's unbelievable that such junk is still around.
 

Captain Chaos

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I was pointing out your comparison of a Pacer with a Mazda MX-5.

I don't really care if you like Pacers or not. You have a choice (as you so eloquently put with your photo of a Mazda). If you don't like it, don't use it! That's the beauty of choice! I just fail to see the point of moaning about a point that has been made a thousand times.

Pacers are crap. We get it. Move on. They'll be gone in a few years anyway.
 

ls1911

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If you think pointing out that a nodding donkey is an unacceptable form of rail transport is 'trolling', then you just don't get it.

Of course you won't hear passengers complaining on the train about Donkeys. Life's too short! They are just less likely to choose the train next time than if it was a 323.

323s aren't exactly luxurious, but they have adequate seats and legroom (Donkey's don't), they are fast with quick accelleration (unlike Donkeys), they are far quieter than Donkeys, they don't bounce up and down and nod like Donkeys do, and they are not draughty like Donkeys.

Nodding Donkeys were never an acceptable rail vehicle. In the 21st century it's unbelievable that such junk is still around.
Great points! If it wasnt for your pointless 'look at my car' picture then id be in full agreement.
 

Captain Speaking

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Great points! If it wasnt for your pointless 'look at my car' picture then id be in full agreement.
Jealous? I've also got 3 motorbikes and if you observe my avatar you'll see me in my other toy.... :D

Seriously, what Chaos doesn't seem to get is that if I think Donkeys are an insult to the travelling public, so will the rest of the travelling public. So they'll not be supporters of rail, and in the harsh economic climate rail will soon need all the friends outside the railway it can get. Cameron and McNulty have already put the writing on the wall.
 

Captain Chaos

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No Mr Speaking. If YOU think they are an insult, then YOU think they are an insult. Not anyone else. YOU. YOU do not think for me. YOU do not form my opinions for me. I do. Not YOU. ME.

Your opinions are your opinions and nobody else's. Do not ever suggest that your opinion is that of everybody else's. Because you will just look stupid.

I'm no longer going to reply to this thread as you are clearly just trying to wind me up. And quite frankly I am not really in the mood for it. I've got more important things to worry about
 

Mike395

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The Pacer debate has been done to death several times on here - I am locking this thread as I think it'll just get out of hand otherwise.
 
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