What's happening with refurbishment of Great Northern carriages?

[StateOfPlay]

If so I just wondered if you knew what was happening with the refurbishment of carriages? At the moment it seems 3 or 4 carriages per train are refurbished with roomier seating that is comfortable. (by the way, I thought they were new carriages they did such a good job). Have they done a group and then stopped? Or are they planning to refurb all the carriages?

 

[Hadders]

I don't work on the railway but I am a frequent user of Great Northern.

The trains that are being refurbished are the Class 365 units. These are four carriage trains and the whole train is done at the same time. Many services are run with 2 or 3 trains joined together so you often end up with a mix of refurbished and un-refurbished carriages. I'm not aware that he refurbishment programme has stopped, I believe it is continuing.

In my opinion this latest refurbishment further cheapens these excellent trains. For example:

- the replacement of carpet by vinyl
- removal of two sets of bay seats per carriage, replaced by more airline seats.

The seats themselves are exactly the same as the ones pre-refurbishment. They just have a new cover.

Most of these trains will move elsewhere in couple of years when the new class 700 trains enter these service. Enjoy the 365's while you can - the new trains will have fewer seats so more people can stand! Although to be fair many of the trains will be longer than at present. Think Metropolitan Line trains and you probably won't be far wrong.

 

[StateOfPlay]

Thanks Hadders. I have to say I do like the new refit as I can sit without my knees crushing into the seat in front. As for the bay seats, I am not a fan as I tend to find that with 4 or 5 people it is a very tight fit.

 

[gazthomas]

Thanks Hadders. I have to say I do like the new refit as I can sit without my knees crushing into the seat in front. As for the bay seats, I am not a fan as I tend to find that with 4 or 5 people it is a very tight fit.

Definitely a tight fit with 5 people!

 

[Hadders]

The only change to the seats is having more airline seats. The actual number of seats per train has not changed. The distance between seats has not changed either.

Personally I find the airline seats a bit tight, given my height.

 

[philjo]

The main issue I have with the refurbished 365s is that most of the airline seats are now facing one way so there are not many seats facing the other direction. previously it was about a 50:50 mix in each direction. I prefer to face the direction of travel.
I also find the lighting is too bright.
To be honest I find the unrefurbished units to be more comfortable and pleasant to travel in.

 

[159220]

Most of these trains will move elsewhere in couple of years when the new class 700 trains enter these service. Enjoy the 365's while you can - the new trains will have fewer seats so more people can stand! Although to be fair many of the trains will be longer than at present. Think Metropolitan Line trains and you probably won't be far wrong.

Correction, the 'Cambridge Express' service is being converted to the far superior Class 377/5 from 2016. Coach 1 & 4 have all 2+2 seating, arm rests, tables for all and air-conditioning! A significant improvement over the current 365s, unless you sit in coach 2 & 3 of the 377/5!

The Class 700s shall be taking over the semi-fast and stoppers.

 

[Hadders]

Correction, the 'Cambridge Express' service is being converted to the far superior Class 377/5 from 2016. Coach 1 & 4 have all 2+2 seating, arm rests, tables for all and air-conditioning! A significant improvement over the current 365s, unless you sit in coach 2 & 3 of the 377/5!

The Class 700s shall be taking over the semi-fast and stoppers.

Coaches 2 and 3 have 3+2 seating, I assume? Air conditioning is fair enough although one of the pleasures of the 365's is a fast run during summer with all the windows open

Also, not everyone lives in Cambridge so some of us will have no choice other than the 700's.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Coaches 2 and 3 have 3+2 seating, I assume? Air conditioning is fair enough although one of the pleasures of the 365's is a fast run during summer with all the windows open

Also, not everyone lives in Cambridge so some of us will have no choice other than the 700's.

Coaches two and three indeed have 3+2 seating. I have always found the air-con on 377 stock to be very good indeed, I was absolutely heartbroken when the 377/3s on the coast were replaced by the loathsome (window ventilated) class 313s.

 

[jopsuk]

there's been nothing said about it, but it's entirely possible that coaches 2&3 could be reconfigured to 2+2. Doubt the Fen Line lot will be happy with 3+2!

 

[Townsend Hook]

there's been nothing said about it, but it's entirely possible that coaches 2&3 could be reconfigured to 2+2. Doubt the Fen Line lot will be happy with 3+2!

Does seem like a lot of expense and hassle for the sake of giving people armrests..

 

[jon0844]

Correction, the 'Cambridge Express' service is being converted to the far superior Class 377/5 from 2016. Coach 1 & 4 have all 2+2 seating, arm rests, tables for all and air-conditioning! A significant improvement over the current 365s, unless you sit in coach 2 & 3 of the 377/5!

there's been nothing said about it, but it's entirely possible that coaches 2&3 could be reconfigured to 2+2. Doubt the Fen Line lot will be happy with 3+2!

I really do hope that as the 377/5s will surely need a refresh at some point in the not too distant future, they could consider going with 2+2 in coaches 2 & 3 as it's not that comfortable.

Of course that then means more than just changing seat covers, so suddenly won't be a simple refresh.

Openable windows might be fine for the fast trains that are well on their way out of London, but no fun for people who board a train at King's Cross that came out of Hornsey and have been heating up all afternoon, and there's no chance to cool them until the train has been moving at speed for 10+ minutes (at least).

 

[jopsuk]

Does seem like a lot of expense and hassle for the sake of giving people armrests..

2+2 doesn't mean arm rests, just a bit more personal space. The Kings Lynn services are a classic of the "downgrade spiral"- they used to be full loco-hauled with a buffet car from Liverpool Street, and loco changes, currently decent-spec outer suburban EMUs- 3+2 seating WILL be seen as downgrade

 

[Townsend Hook]

2+2 doesn't mean arm rests, just a bit more personal space. The Kings Lynn services are a classic of the "downgrade spiral"- they used to be full loco-hauled with a buffet car from Liverpool Street, and loco changes, currently decent-spec outer suburban EMUs- 3+2 seating WILL be seen as downgrade

The 377s are decent spec outer suburban EMUs. That is their bread and butter, and it is a task they fulfil very well. Until recently I commuted around an hour each way on Southern 377s every day, and had absolutely no problem with the 3+2 seating. Yes the 2+2 seats are always going to be more comfortable but the 3+2 seats aren't bad either.

 

[jon0844]

I think the 3+2 seating is okay too, if you're sitting. Seem better than on, say, a 317. The problem is the narrower aisle, which hinders your movement inside.

Obviously 317s present the same problem and are in service on the GN side, but the 365s don't.

I think it would be nice, therefore, to change it is not too difficult when the trains get an update.

I suppose if they're almost exclusively going on the fast services to Cambridge it's not such an issue as people will get on and stay on, so likely not need to shuffle about.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

2+2 doesn't mean arm rests, just a bit more personal space. The Kings Lynn services are a classic of the "downgrade spiral"- they used to be full loco-hauled with a buffet car from Liverpool Street, and loco changes, currently decent-spec outer suburban EMUs- 3+2 seating WILL be seen as downgrade

I agree, but King's Lynn has had (3+2) 317s in the past - they were my regular commute from Cambridge to Ely for a year.

 

[RichardN]

What tends to happen on Southern is the 2+2 fills up before the 3+2, so King's Lynn passengers will get the 2+2 and those further south may have to endure the 2+3. In some ways it is a shame the 387s won't be used on the Cruiser as you'd think 110 mph would be most useful there.

 

[Townsend Hook]

What tends to happen on Southern is the 2+2 fills up before the 3+2, so King's Lynn passengers will get the 2+2 and those further south may have to endure the 2+3. In some ways it is a shame the 387s won't be used on the Cruiser as you'd think 110 mph would be most useful there.

110 mph will be equally as useful on the GWML..

 

[BestWestern]

Coaches two and three indeed have 3+2 seating. I have always found the air-con on 377 stock to be very good indeed, I was absolutely heartbroken when the 377/3s on the coast were replaced by the loathsome (window ventilated) class 313s.

Ah, the Southern 'heritage fleet'

 

[muddythefish]

I don't work on the railway but I am a frequent user of Great Northern.

The trains that are being refurbished are the Class 365 units. These are four carriage trains and the whole train is done at the same time. Many services are run with 2 or 3 trains joined together so you often end up with a mix of refurbished and un-refurbished carriages. I'm not aware that he refurbishment programme has stopped, I believe it is continuing.

In my opinion this latest refurbishment further cheapens these excellent trains. For example:

- the replacement of carpet by vinyl
- removal of two sets of bay seats per carriage, replaced by more airline seats.

The seats themselves are exactly the same as the ones pre-refurbishment. They just have a new cover.

Most of these trains will move elsewhere in couple of years when the new class 700 trains enter these service. Enjoy the 365's while you can - the new trains will have fewer seats so more people can stand! Although to be fair many of the trains will be longer than at present. Think Metropolitan Line trains and you probably won't be far wrong.

Agree absolutely.

I've used the 365s alot over the years and always thought them one of the best trains on the railway.

After 20 years or more of intensive use they did need a makeover but the job they have done is cheap and nasty and has made them considerably worse than they were before.

Worst is replacing carpet with vinyl and taking away most of the tables seats. The result is a train that is less comfortable and less attractive than previously

If an 8-car train comes into the station I always make for the unrefurbished unit rather than the new one.

 

[jon0844]

I contacted GTR yesterday to ask how they could think it acceptable on a refreshed 365 where the first class doors were locked open (presumably due to a faulty sensor) and meant no first class sign on the doors, no stickers next to the doors, no '1' signs on the windows and just ONE single warning sign with small text on the cab door.

Yes, there was First Class written on the antimacassars but as any 365 user will know, when you enter the compartment you can only see four seat backs facing you - and if these are occupied then, frankly, there's no way someone would know it was first class if they'd never been on one before.

And even regular users might reasonably think that with the new 'dumbed down' interior that first class had perhaps been removed.

I know some people will pretend they didn't know they were in first class, but here it's very believable.

 

[Hadders]

Agree absolutely.

I've used the 365s alot over the years and always thought them one of the best trains on the railway.

After 20 years or more of intensive use they did need a makeover but the job they have done is cheap and nasty and has made them considerably worse than they were before.

Worst is replacing carpet with vinyl and taking away most of the tables seats. The result is a train that is less comfortable and less attractive than previously

If an 8-car train comes into the station I always make for the unrefurbished unit rather than the new one.

So it's not just me that dislikes the refurbishment of the 365s...

In reality they're dumbing down and 'cheapening' the look and feel of the trains in the hope that we don't notice the new trains when they arrive, what with their fewer seats so more people can stand.

I do find it strange that as new models of cars get more luxurious and comfortable, trains get the opposite!

 

[jon0844]

I guess because they're having to move a lot of people, so eventually the best option is an empty carriage with nothing but grab handles.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

3+2 is better suited for commuter routes, not longer routes

 

[infobleep]

3+2 is better suited for commuter routes, not longer routes

But these days commuters travel long distances and so long distance routes become commuter routes.

Look at Portsmouth to Waterloo.

 

[StateOfPlay]

These are the carriages that I have most discomfort when the train is full. In a 3/2 combination I end up with my knees jammed in between the knees of the person opposite for A bit too intimate for me. However, the seats themselves are quite comfy, so on a Friday morning when the trains are a lot emptier it is a really pleasant journey. Every other time, it is very cozy!

 

[D365]

Ah yes, the venerable Class 317... Seats still in the original configuration, and rather well cushioned!

Not that I now miss them or anything

 

[jon0844]

Just seen the new accessible toilet on the 365 and I'm impressed, as well as the new wheelchair area.

But it also announces the train as West Anglia Great Northern and has returned to announcing the next stop as Finsbury Park on approach to Potters Bar.

 

[Skimble19]

Surprised you're impressed by that.. Think it's an absolute mess personally. A LOT of space wasted. I would have thought with a little more money there could have been tip up seats in some of the areas, which would have saved the large amount of seats that have been lost, but sadly like the rest of this cheap refurbishment it hasn't been done.

 

[Rick1984]

Think it may have been a 377/5 I travelled on recently in the south going by that picture as all the seats in the middle portion of the carriage where at tables, which impressed me. And I normally prefer Desiros to Electrostars.