What's the best way of doing an independence referendum?

[XAM2175]

Perhaps if there was a more clear and defined relationship, there would be less mistrust and greater respect between the Parliaments.

Yes - this and the end of parliamentary sovereignty are the two absolute minimum requirements for there to be even a chance of long-term stability in the devolution settlements.

Good question-I think that the Tories are going to need to play the Federalism card pretty soon. It'll be the only thing that could really derail the nationalist campaign in a second referendum.

My honest feeling is that the window is closing very very quickly. Personally I would have no trust in the current UK government to deliver anything near a fair and workable arrangement. None at all.

As an Englishman, the sooner they go the better.

Please feel free to write to your MP asking them to support the grant of the Section 30 order.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This sums it up for me. When I was young I was very much pro SNP and pro Independence, but that was back when there was a reasonable chance that we could sustain our position backed with oil revenues. As a much older and hopefully wiser person I have no truck with it whatsoever and I sincerely hope that the pro-remain campaigners get the message out strongly and clearly that Scotland will be an economic disaster if we went alone. Sturgeon has not explained at all what would happen if the Yes vote wins, there is no plan for the economy without the massive backing from the Barnet formula income source, it has been shown that the tax base is way short of what is required to sustain government spending. Indeed we don't know on what basis the monetary policy will be structured, last time it was suggested that we would remain with the pound and tied to the Bank of England, hardly independence as the Scottish Government would need to toe the Westminster/BoE line on interest rates etc. No plans for defence, apart from the immediate removal of all nuclear bases from Scotland, resulting in a loss of jobs and economic hardship for the areas around them. Much of the SNPs plan depends on gaining membership of the EU, which will likely taken many years and if it happens will be on Brussels terms and conditions, much less favourable than before and with all the issues that are starting to be seen in Ireland regarding borders. This all needs to be clearly spelt out to the voters before the referendum, I just hope independence does not happen

Out of interest: You're emphasizing the economic loss as the main disbenefit of independence. That was almost exactly what the Remain campaign did in the Brexit referendum, and I got the impression that message largely fell on deaf ears because the economic situation was never really what motivated Brexiters in the first place: It was more, the emotional attachment to the the UK as an independent nation, and a lot of Brexit voters seemed to feel that some economic pain was worth it to achieve that goal. I'm just wondering to what extent the same would apply in Scotland? Are people who support independence motivated by the identity and the emotional attachment of an independent Scotland, or by a belief that the economy would be fine with independence? And if it's the former, would a campaign emphasizing the economy work, or would it be likely to fall flat just like in the Brexit referendum? (Those are genuine questions - I live in England so I'm not that familiar with how the Scottish referendum campaigns played out last time).

 

[75A]

Yes - this and the end of parliamentary sovereignty are the two absolute minimum requirements for there to be even a chance of long-term stability in the devolution settlements.


My honest feeling is that the window is closing very very quickly. Personally I would have no trust in the current UK government to deliver anything near a fair and workable arrangement. None at all.


Please feel free to write to your MP asking them to support the grant of the Section 30 order.

I certainly will.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Out of interest: You're emphasizing the economic loss as the main disbenefit of independence. That was almost exactly what the Remain campaign did in the Brexit referendum, and I got the impression that message largely fell on deaf ears because the economic situation was never really what motivated Brexiters in the first place: It was more, the emotional attachment to the the UK as an independent nation, and a lot of Brexit voters seemed to feel that some economic pain was worth it to achieve that goal. I'm just wondering to what extent the same would apply in Scotland? Are people who support independence motivated by the identity and the emotional attachment of an independent Scotland, or by a belief that the economy would be fine with independence? And if it's the former, would a campaign emphasizing the economy work, or would it be likely to fall flat just like in the Brexit referendum? (Those are genuine questions - I live in England so I'm not that familiar with how the Scottish referendum campaigns played out last time).

Unfortunately you are quite correct in that the motivation is based on the Braveheart poppycock of getting freedom from these nasty English overlords that have subjugated the poor Scots for the past 400 years, Comparing Brexit with Scottish Independence is not really possible, as Brexit meant returning the UK to a position that it had been in a mere 45 years ago, well within the lifespan of most of the older population, and the rose tinted memories were that the UK was well capable of sustaining itself outwith the EU (even though my memory of the seventies were of a period of unpleasant economic upheaval). Scotland has never been Independent in the modern era, 400 years is a hell of a long time. If I could make an analogy - Brexit was like separating a problem child from the foster family that it had been with for a few years, Scottish Independence will be like separating teenage Siamese Twins, one of which is considerably weaker than the other with a poor life expectancy once separated. The message needs to be clear that this is no trial separation, there is no way back once the decision is made, and if when it all goes wrong Nicola Sturgeon will most certainly say - well it is not my fault, the people wanted it and I was just following their will.

 

[nlogax]

I certainly will.

I am still curious as to your England-specific desire for Scotland to no longer be a member of the UK.

 

[d9009alycidon]

I am still curious as to your England-specific desire for Scotland to no longer be a member of the UK.

It is certainly an atypical reaction. An argument that is often used by pro-independence campaigners is "why has successive Westminster Governments fought to keep the Union together if it costs them so much in subsidies to us Scots" - we must have something of value that is worth keeping.

 

[Western Lord]

Unfortunately you are quite correct in that the motivation is based on the Braveheart poppycock of getting freedom from these nasty English overlords that have subjugated the poor Scots for the past 400 years, Comparing Brexit with Scottish Independence is not really possible, as Brexit meant returning the UK to a position that it had been in a mere 45 years ago, well within the lifespan of most of the older population, and the rose tinted memories were that the UK was well capable of sustaining itself outwith the EU (even though my memory of the seventies were of a period of unpleasant economic upheaval). Scotland has never been Independent in the modern era, 400 years is a hell of a long time. If I could make an analogy - Brexit was like separating a problem child from the foster family that it had been with for a few years, Scottish Independence will be like separating teenage Siamese Twins, one of which is considerably weaker than the other with a poor life expectancy once separated. The message needs to be clear that this is no trial separation, there is no way back once the decision is made, and if when it all goes wrong Nicola Sturgeon will most certainly say - well it is not my fault, the people wanted it and I was just following their will.

I imagine that when it all goes wrong, Sturgeon will still be blaming the nasty English.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is certainly an atypical reaction. An argument that is often used by pro-independence campaigners is "why has successive Westminster Governments fought to keep the Union together if it costs them so much in subsidies to us Scots" - we must have something of value that is worth keeping.

A typical line of thinking is that Scotland must have some inherent worth in and of itself, like resources, which mean England on its own would be impoverished without the company of Scotland in the Union - a sort of parasitic arrangement where England leeches off of Scotland. This is quite wrong. Only about half of English people actually care if Scotland stays, and the reason for the preservation of the Union over so much time is because it's generally been felt that the UK is better and stronger as a Union than as separate entities.

 

[WAB]

It's very clear that the entirety of the rUK/Scotland relationship in all matters needs to be negotiated and agreed before the referendum - jumping into the dark like we did for Brexit doesn't seem to be a good idea.