What's the point of the Harrogate-London LNER service?

[skyhigh]

How big of an issue is LNER services importing delays to the Harrogate line?

Not much. There is plenty of standing time at Harrogate so the return workings are punctual.

Outward if the LNER is late above a certain point it'll either get cancelled at Leeds or the Northern service will run ahead of it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Platform space at Leeds is at a premium, so allows a unit to be out the way without taking up space at Leeds for a prolonged period of time/shunting to Neville Hill.

Except when they split and join at Leeds, they take up more platfrom space…


As to why this exists, no one has mentioned politics yet.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I can't speak so much for Harrogate, but Lincoln is in a similar position of being a tourist destination which, until recently, had no direct service from London (at least, not one that tourists would use -arriving just before the pubs shut and returning to London before breakfast!)
People don't like changing trains, and for different reasons neither Leeds nor Newark are nice places to do so - Leeds is large and confusing, Newark is basic and has infrequent connections.
People who have to travel to or from such places either put up with having to change trains, railhead to a station with a direct service, or go by road (car or coach).
People who don't have to travel to such destinations, such as tourists, simply choose not to go (or go to a different tourist destination, which does have a direct train service)

 

[AndrewP]

I used to live in the Harrogate area and always went via York as it was quicker and generally better without the reversal at Leeds.

There are a lot of people in the area who travel to London for a few days a week and have connections with / used to live in London.

There is also the fact that Leeds is a major financial centre and is/was the biggest outside London.

All this probably explains the demand as much as it keeps the trains out of the way of Leeds and York stations

 

[philjo]

I was on the 15:36 from Harrogate to Stevenage last Friday. There was a large crowd boarding the train at Harrogate, most having luggage.

 

[rower40]

The trolley on the Harrogate train should be sponsored and stocked by Betty’s Tearoom.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Harrogate is a destination for conferences and holidays in a way that Barnsley and Huddersfield aren't.

This is the key point. The Harrogate District Chamber of Commerce lobbied long and hard to have the town's London service improved from the previous once-a-day timetable (uni-directional for a while) to support the businesses associated with the Harrogate Convention Centre. Post-Covid this is probably less relevant but equally Harrogate is also marketed as a Gateway to the Dales.

Of course inbound passengers would still need a hire car to head into the country given the sparseness of rural bus services but through trains from/to London avoid the need for the slog on the A1 or M1. And the relative affluence of the area means Harrogate is a useful railhead with the London trains increasing the attractiveness of the overall offering.

 

[jamiearmley]

Financially, it's a basket case in terms of fare revenue from passengers actually carried. It's financially rewarding due to Orcats (revenue abstraction). And I have that information on incredibly good authority.

The platform space at Leeds is currently used twice : once for London to Harrogate, then again for Harrogate to London. Whilst this may seem ideal on paper, it actually causes no end of issues, with conflicting moves across the station throat, platforms requiring to be kept available for far longer, and the inevitable delays causing knock on arrival and departure delays for local services.

Bring back the days of KGX LDS turn backs. Simple, reliable, proven over time.

 

[Horizon22]

Except when they split and join at Leeds, they take up more platfrom space…


As to why this exists, no one has mentioned politics yet.

Well partly but it’s also rather economical as well as political. Although Harrogate’s political representation at a national level has recently changed!

 

[johntea]

On a related note why does it use Platform 3 when arriving into Harrogate rather than Platform 1? (I know it then 'parks up' a bit futher down until the return journey but is there not a crossover available (apologies sure there is a far better 'official' railway term!) so it has to do it before arriving in Harrogate?)

I do seem to have a memory of it arriving on Platform 1 when it first launched many years ago for some reason

 

[randyrippley]

GCHQ have locations in and around Harrogate
They will need trains to London

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Financially, it's a basket case in terms of fare revenue from passengers actually carried. It's financially rewarding due to Orcats (revenue abstraction). And I have that information on incredibly good authority.

So, who potentially benefits/disbenefits here from the money-go-round that is ORCATS, and how exactly?

 

[jamiearmley]

So, who potentially benefits/disbenefits here from the money-go-round that is ORCATS, and how exactly?

LNER benefits financially. Northern disbenefits financially. (All really irrelevant, as all money goes to DFT).

HOWEVER - LNER looks more successful on paper. Northern less so. LNER ultimately gets praise, Northern gets pressured to cut costs and services.

The ultimate loser is the passenger, sadly. And it was ever thus. I recall reading about BR's fudging of revenue allocation in order to make the Inter-City 'profit centre' look better than it actually was during the run up to privatisation.

And that's notwithstanding the disruption caused by the frequent LNER cancellations, which regularly see passengers forced onto Northern for the first/last leg of their journeys. Ultimately, passengers want reliability - and the Harrogate line is one of the few locations where Northern is more able to be relied upon than LNER.

On a related note why does it use Platform 3 when arriving into Harrogate rather than Platform 1? (I know it then 'parks up' a bit futher down until the return journey but is there not a crossover available (apologies sure there is a far better 'official' railway term!) so it has to do it before arriving in Harrogate?)

I do seem to have a memory of it arriving on Platform 1 when it first launched many years ago for some reason

Originally, it came into 1, then shunted out towards Leeds, then back into 3 and into the new stabling siding.

Since then, a crossover has been installed, allowing direct access to 3 and a far quicker and easier move to the siding for layover.

It's massively reduced the initial delays caused by complex and time consuming shunt moves .

 

[heedfan]

On a related note why does it use Platform 3 when arriving into Harrogate rather than Platform 1? (I know it then 'parks up' a bit futher down until the return journey but is there not a crossover available (apologies sure there is a far better 'official' railway term!) so it has to do it before arriving in Harrogate?)

I do seem to have a memory of it arriving on Platform 1 when it first launched many years ago for some reason

A crossover was installed just before COVID (at least I think that timing is correct) at the south end of the station to allow direct access to platform 3 from the south. The down siding (where these units sit between the return journey) is only accessible from P3 as it begins immediately beyond the end of this platform. The non-platformed through line and general layout of the area prevents a crossover from P1 directly to the down siding at the north end of the station.

Previously a shunt move was required to move from P1 to the down siding.

Some LNER services still use P1 but generally it is only those services which arrive/depart empty and therefore turn around back to Leeds within the platform.

 

[Clarence Yard]

LNER benefits financially. Northern disbenefits financially. (All really irrelevant, as all money goes to DFT).

HOWEVER - LNER looks more successful on paper. Northern less so. LNER ultimately gets praise, Northern gets pressured to cut costs and services.

The ultimate loser is the passenger, sadly. And it was ever thus. I recall reading about BR's fudging of revenue allocation in order to make the Inter-City 'profit centre' look better than it actually was during the run up to privatisation.

Except that Leeds-Harrogate has a high proportion of its revenue as dedicated, so ORCATS raiding doesn’t really apply here because most of the revenue is either 100% Northern or 100% LNER.

The ORCATS raiding that started off in sector days is now a dying art, thanks to dedicated fares. These days you want it all to yourself, not playing % games to gain a share of naff all inter-available.

 

[eisenach]

Through services between Harrogate and Kings Cross have a long an illustrious history, going back to the days of steam.

The Yorkshire Pullman had a Harrogate portion and the Queen of Scots Pullman ran via Harrogate and Ripon. The latter was truncated to run to/from Harrogate only and renamed the White Rose in (I think) 1964. A short while after, in 1967, the White Rose was replaced by the 1130 Kings Cross-Harrogate and back, amongst the first Deltic+8 limited load fast expresses.

When I was a nipper, late 50s, mum used regularly to walk me down the hill to watch the Yorkshire Pullman go through Horsforth. A tremendous roar, clouds of steam and coaches with little lamps on the window tables.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

When I was a nipper, late 50s, mum used regularly to walk me down the hill to watch the Yorkshire Pullman go through Horsforth. A tremendous roar, clouds of steam and coaches with little lamps on the window tables.

Good stuff, but how's that directly relevant to discussion of the present day service provision some 65 years later?

 

[greyman42]

Its part of the Golden Triangle for the well heeled!
Leeds - Harrogate - Wetherby, their need is well represented and as previously mentioned, takes some pressure off the Leeds - Doncaster route and onto the ECML.

As Duffield says " Harrogate is very much a "destination" in the way York is and (say) Barnsley isn't." Plus it means a bit shorter journey for some 88000 passengers.
Long may it continue.

The Golden Triangle is actually North Leeds, Harrogate and York with Wetherby situated in the middle of the area.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

So, who potentially benefits/disbenefits here from the money-go-round that is ORCATS, and how exactly?

I would argue that passengers also benefit in that direct services are provided that otherwise would not be. There is a proven preference for direct trains so for flows that can be made to justify it (by whatever means) then there is a good case for doing so.

 

[Adam0984]

Even with the 2 hourly direct service in between these there's still a good number of passengers travel to London so there's a good business case to run them

 

[E27007]

I can't speak so much for Harrogate, but Lincoln is in a similar position of being a tourist destination which, until recently, had no direct service from London (at least, not one that tourists would use -arriving just before the pubs shut and returning to London before breakfast!)
People don't like changing trains, and for different reasons neither Leeds nor Newark are nice places to do so - Leeds is large and confusing, Newark is basic and has infrequent connections.
People who have to travel to or from such places either put up with having to change trains, railhead to a station with a direct service, or go by road (car or coach).
People who don't have to travel to such destinations, such as tourists, simply choose not to go (or go to a different tourist destination, which does have a direct train service)

In the past if are you were an industrialist making your wealth in "smokey" Leeds where "t'birds fly bac'ards to keep t' muck outa their eeyes", you lived in comfortable genteel Harrogate.

 

[TUC]

What is more puzzling is what is the appeal of LNER services which operate beyond Leeds, but which include a long wait in Leeds itself? For example, the 1803 Kings Cross-Skipton service arrives in Leeds at 2021, but then does not depart for Skipton until 2039. I'm all for smaller towns having through services, but surely that length of wait wipes out a lot of the benefit?

 

[Sly Old Fox]

What is more puzzling is what is the appeal of LNER services which operate beyond Leeds, but which include a long wait in Leeds itself? For example, the 1803 Kings Cross-Skipton service arrives in Leeds at 2021, but then does not depart for Skipton until 2039. I'm all for smaller towns having through services, but surely that length of wait wipes out a lot of the benefit?

Just means if it picks up a delay of up to 10 minutes between London and Leeds it can still depart on time to Skipton. Probably also has to wait for a path. It’s much preferable to sit on a train at Leeds for 15 minutes then have to traipse around the station looking for a connection.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It would have done with the original via York plans.

The line between York and Knaresborough is single tracked. Fitting in the half-hourly Northern service is tricky enough, as one delay has a knock-on effect across the line. Fitting in a LNER service would be even harder, with the service not being much quicker than the Northern service, due to it needing to frequently stop in passing places.

 

[DarloRich]

Well obviously, but there are plenty of other places with far higher populations in Yorkshire (Barnsley, Huddersfield etc) with no such connection. It just seems like an odd service to exist

Because Harrogate has more money and influence than Barnsley or Huddersfield!

 

[A S Leib]

Why have Harrogate and Lincoln ended up with bihourly LNER services whilst Hull, Bradford, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Inverness and Glasgow only have / had token services? My guesses:

• Relative wealth / affluence of Harrogate and Lincoln
• The Metro's frequent enough that there's less point in serving Sunderland via Newcastle, and a service going to Sunderland is one not going to Edinburgh (presumably more profitable)
• Avanti wins for London – Glasgow on time, and Edinburgh – Glasgow isn't infrequent for passengers from / to northeast England / Yorkshire
• A token service is enough for LNER to claim that they're competing with Hull Trains / Grand Central for Hull / Bradford – London
• Last departures after ~15:00 for Inverness – London for daytime trains would be unattractive given the length of the journey
• Is Middlesbrough (and Cleethorpes?) a service LNER particularly wants to provide at all, or one the government can / could point to and say they were doing levelling up? (Although I'd guess this way LNER get at least some of the funds from Middlesbrough – York / King's Cross tickets as well, even if most people take TPE or go via Darlington.)

 

[skyhigh]

The line between York and Knaresborough is single tracked. Fitting in the half-hourly Northern service is tricky enough, as one delay has a knock-on effect across the line. Fitting in a LNER service would be even harder, with the service not being much quicker than the Northern service, due to it needing to frequently stop in passing places.

There was a plan to redouble at least some sections to allow it to work.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

The line between York and Knaresborough is single tracked. Fitting in the half-hourly Northern service is tricky enough, as one delay has a knock-on effect across the line. Fitting in a LNER service would be even harder, with the service not being much quicker than the Northern service, due to it needing to frequently stop in passing places.

It's double track between Harrogate and Knaresborough, the single track sections are east of Knaresborough.
However, fitting in the necessary shunt move between an arrival at Knaresborough from London, and the subsequent departure, would be quite tricky.

 

[NewarkRed]

Why have Harrogate and Lincoln ended up with bihourly LNER services whilst Hull, Bradford, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Inverness and Glasgow only have / had token services? My guesses:

• Relative wealth / affluence of Harrogate and Lincoln
• The Metro's frequent enough that there's less point in serving Sunderland via Newcastle, and a service going to Sunderland is one not going to Edinburgh (presumably more profitable)
• Avanti wins for London – Glasgow on time, and Edinburgh – Glasgow isn't infrequent for passengers from / to northeast England / Yorkshire
• A token service is enough for LNER to claim that they're competing with Hull Trains / Grand Central for Hull / Bradford – London
• Last departures after ~15:00 for Inverness – London for daytime trains would be unattractive given the length of the journey
• Is Middlesbrough (and Cleethorpes?) a service LNER particularly wants to provide at all, or one the government can / could point to and say they were doing levelling up? (Although I'd guess this way LNER get at least some of the funds from Middlesbrough – York / King's Cross tickets as well, even if most people take TPE or go via Darlington.)

The Lincoln service seems to be lobbying by Visit Lincoln and the county council. With regards to wealth take a look at the cars parked up in Newark North Gate station most of the week.

 

[The exile]

What is more puzzling is what is the appeal of LNER services which operate beyond Leeds, but which include a long wait in Leeds itself? For example, the 1803 Kings Cross-Skipton service arrives in Leeds at 2021, but then does not depart for Skipton until 2039. I'm all for smaller towns having through services, but surely that length of wait wipes out a lot of the benefit?

How long would you allow if changing trains and on an advance ticket for both legs? Now be elderly, or carrying luggage, or travelling with children… The attraction of a through train is that it is exactly that. Speed isn’t everyone’s be-all-and-end-all.