What's the thing about deltics?

[DerekC]

So they are an ugly blue box which goes very fast, makes a loud noise and emits lots of fumes. (Duck to avoid incoming missiles).

 

[delt1c]

Front cab or back cab?

Front of course, what type of lass do you think she was.
if memory serves me correct i think Bristol was my intended destination that night

 

[ChiefPlanner]

22 Deltics replaced about 60 A3 / A4 Pacifics with huge cost savings and laid the foundations for a much improved "Inter City" service.

Developed further by the HST in less than 2 decades.

 

[Welly]

They can make as much smoke as steam locomotives when they felt like it!

Deltics - the King of Diesels!

 

[Willr2094]

There are many reasons why Deltics are popular - here are five:

• The prototype was the world's most powerful diesel locomotive when built in 1955
• The series production version revolutionised journey times on the East Coast Main Line from the previous A1/A3/A4 Pacific timings and laid the foundations for the later successful use of the Inter-City 125 HST sets on the ECML from 1978 onwards.
• First diesel locomotive type able to comfortably travel at 100mph
• Completely unique engine sound
• In the late 1990s became the first preserved diesel locomotive class be made available to work occasional scheduled service trains on the privatised railway as opposed to use on rail tours alone, laying the foundations for the hiring of preserved class 50s, D1015 Western Champion, and further Deltic operations in the 2000s.

 

[theageofthetra]

There are many reasons why Deltics are popular - here are five:

• The prototype was the world's most powerful diesel locomotive when built in 1955
• The series production version revolutionised journey times on the East Coast Main Line from the previous A1/A3/A4 Pacific timings and laid the foundations for the later successful use of the Inter-City 125 HST sets on the ECML from 1978 onwards.
• First diesel locomotive type able to comfortably travel at 100mph
• Completely unique engine sound
• In the late 1990s became the first preserved diesel locomotive class be made available to work occasional scheduled service trains on the privatised railway as opposed to use on rail tours alone, laying the foundations for the hiring of preserved class 50s, D1015 Western Champion, and further Deltic operations in the 2000s.

I would query the worlds most powerful- possibly the most powerful single unit one. I would have thought any of the US A+B+A of the period would have more?

 

[GusB]

I would query the worlds most powerful- possibly the most powerful single unit one. I would have thought any of the US A+B+A of the period would have more?

Deltics had two engines.

 

[shredder1]

We hated the Deltics in the 50`s when they were replacing our lovely A4`s, I can remember being sat on a luggage trolly at York with a few mates hoping that the next thing to appear would be another when this dam green box appeared, funnily they grew on us over the years and now they are gone too :roll:

 

[AndrewE]

Deltics had two engines.

I think "Units" can be diesel power units (1 or 2 in a locomotive in the UK) or Locomotives in the USA. The term "Engine" wasn't encouraged 30 years ago because of the obvious ambiguity.

I'm not sure A+B+A counts as a single unit, even if it is one loco!

 

[theageofthetra]

Deltics had two engines.

I know but in one body. As opposed to the multiple bodies common in 1st gen US diesels- cab unit-slave-cab unit etc but considered one locomotive?

 

[Helvellyn]

I wonder how much the fact every loco was named played a part? At the time very many diesels were unnamed so here you had a small fleet, that it was possibly easier to identify with them (e.g. ST PADDY rather than D9001).

 

[341o2]

22 Deltics replaced about 60 A3 / A4 Pacifics with huge cost savings and laid the foundations for a much improved "Inter City" service.

Developed further by the HST in less than 2 decades.

And brought about significant improvement in overall speed The ECML is basically uphill out of Kings Cross, steam meant overall speed of 55 - 60mph, with the Deltics, the new timetable was based around 65-75mph. If only all diesel designs had been as successful.....

 

[ge-gn]

Often wondered, if the design of having two light weight delta engines in a loco was so successful, why it wasn't developed. Presumably high maintenance costs or something like that?

 

[Cowley]

Often wondered, if the design of having two light weight delta engines in a loco was so successful, why it wasn't developed. Presumably high maintenance costs or something like that?

I think they had a very intensive maintenance regime, although they covered many miles at very high speeds too.

Just to add to the overall Deltic mystic.
I remember reading somewhere that they'd been clocked at far higher speeds than their nominally rated 100mph at times. I'm not sure where I read it but I'm sure I heard that one had got up to around the 120mph mark on one occasion, has anyone else heard of that?

 

[341o2]

I think they had a very intensive maintenance regime, although they covered many miles at very high speeds too.

Just to add to the overall Deltic mystic.
I remember reading somewhere that they'd been clocked at far higher speeds than their nominally rated 100mph at times. I'm not sure where I read it but I'm sure I heard that one had got up to around the 120mph mark on one occasion, has anyone else heard of that?

Not as much as 120, but Gerry Feinnes recorded one from a 'seven bell' stop to 103mph in 7 miles, and drinking a cup of tea on the footplate at 106mph, as steady as a rock. (I tried to run a railway p72).

Edit - just found this

The ultimate Deltic performance came on 2 February 1978 with a run on the 07:25 from Newcastle to King's Cross. In some respects the run was set up (the driver was about to retire) but the speeds were record breaking. The locomotive was 55 008 The Green Howards, it was hauling 10 coaches (343 tons gross), and on the leg from York to London it achieved a timing of 137 min 15 sec. This included various signal stops and other enforced speed reductions; the net time is estimated at 115 min 45 sec, an average of 97 mph start to stop. The train achieved 113 mph on the flat between Darlington and York, 114 mph at Offord and 125 mph whilst descending Stoke bank.[8]

Source Railway Performance society quoted here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_55

English Electric agreed to maintain them, and it is a pity that the smaller version - class 23 "Baby Deltics" were not a success, having several mechanical problems, and were an obvious target with the rationalisation of diesel classes begun in the late 60's

 

[Welly]

The Hull Executive from KX to Hull was worked by Deltics hauling (I think 8) air conditioned Mk2ds and that service was scheduled for a point to point average speed of just over 100mph between Peterborough and Newark Northgate.

 

[Cowley]

Not as much as 120, but Gerry Feinnes recorded one from a 'seven bell' stop to 103mph in 7 miles, and drinking a cup of tea on the footplate at 106mph, as steady as a rock. (I tried to run a railway p72).

Edit - just found this

Source Railway Performance society quoted here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_55

English Electric agreed to maintain them, and it is a pity that the smaller version - class 23 "Baby Deltics" were not a success, having several mechanical problems, and were an obvious target with the rationalisation of diesel classes begun in the late 60's

I had to read that twice, 125 mph down Stoke Bank. That's very impressive.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I had to read that twice, 125 mph down Stoke Bank. That's very impressive.

I can remember reading sometime ago that the prototype Deltic on one occasion during the late 50s descended Beattock Bank at a speed of at least 130 mph and in the process caused such serious damage to its traction motors that it had to return to Dick Kerr/English Electric for major repairs. Regarding the class 55s I also recall reading Locomotive Practice & Performance articles in late 70s editions of the Railway Magazine recording speeds of 115-118 mph whilst working 8 coach rakes of mk2 aircon stock on the ECML, it was even suggested at that time (i think not in the RM) that the performance of the Deltics during that period was more in keeping with a 3800hp loco and not one of 3300hp, I'm sure I still have these magazines in the loft somewhere, no doubt under 2" of dust might have to dig them out sometime and fully refresh my memory.

 

[Cowley]

I can remember reading sometime ago that the prototype Deltic on one occasion during the late 50s descended Beattock Bank at a speed of at least 130 mph and in the process caused such serious damage to its traction motors that it had to return to Dick Kerr/English Electric for major repairs. Regarding the class 55s I also recall reading Locomotive Practice & Performance articles in late 70s editions of the Railway Magazine recording speeds of 115-118 mph whilst working 8 coach rakes of mk2 aircon stock on the ECML, it was even suggested at that time (i think not in the RM) that the performance of the Deltics during that period was more in keeping with a 3800hp loco and not one of 3300hp, I'm sure I still have these magazines in the loft somewhere, no doubt under 2" of dust might have to dig them out sometime and fully refresh my memory.

I hadn't heard that about the prototype Deltic before, very interesting. I remember seeing it in the Science Museum as a kid and just being completely blown away by it and the way it looked so American or something.

It's quite something to think of a Deltic getting near the 3800 hp mark, more than two class 37s worth. Blimey.

 

[Ash Bridge]

It's quite something to think of a Deltic getting near the 3800 hp mark, more than two class 37s worth. Blimey.

I'm not stating it was a fact that they were uprated of course but there was certainly quite a lot of talk of it at the time, just remembered I was a member of the Diesel & Electric Preservation Group then (owners of D7017) and I remember reading an article in their quarterly magazine by a Michael Oakley on this topic.

 

[Cowley]

I'm not stating it was a fact that they were uprated of course but there was certainly quite a lot of talk of it at the time, just remembered I was a member of the Diesel & Electric Preservation Group then (owners of D7017) and I remember reading an article in their quarterly magazine by a Michael Oakley on this topic.

Well in my head it's now a fact and if anyone asks me I'll be saying that you told me about it...
Another question: Were the production series Deltic engines very similar to the ones fitted to the Naval boats or were the ones on the original Deltic prototype more similar?
If they were, what was the flywheel horsepower rating in that installation does anyone know? I suppose I'm basically wondering what horsepower a Napier D18-25 series 2 was capable of actually putting out?
Hmm that's three questions actually.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Well in my head it's now a fact and if anyone asks me I'll be saying that you told me about it...
Another question: Were the production series Deltic engines very similar to the ones fitted to the Naval boats or were the ones on the original Deltic prototype more similar?
If they were, what was the flywheel horsepower rating in that installation does anyone know? I suppose I'm basically wondering what horsepower a Napier D18-25 series 2 was capable of actually putting out?
Hmm that's three questions actually.

I'm afraid you've got me on all three of those questions Mr Cowley, I used to possess 'The Deltics, a symposium' an excellent Ian Allan publication from the early 70s which I imagine would have answered all your questions, sadly I loaned it to someone at work some years ago and didn't get it back I stand to be corrected here but ISTR from this book that the Napier 18-25 could be set to deliver a max output of close to 3000hp? Perhaps someone better informed may come along and advise.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 18-25 variant used in the locomotives was rated at 1,650 hp, which I understand to be their lower range and they were set at this level to increase their reliability.

There was also an 18-37 version at 3,100 hp and an 18-50 version which could yield 4,000 hp. i am not sure of the physical differences between the three versions but the second number in each is probably a clue. The leading 18- is the number of pistons.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Peter, wasn't D9000 running around for a while with a marine version engine in place of one of its own power units which was undergoing a rebuild?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That does ring a bell, yes, but I can't remember anything specific.

 

[delt1c]

I can remember reading sometime ago that the prototype Deltic on one occasion during the late 50s descended Beattock Bank at a speed of at least 130 mph and in the process caused such serious damage to its traction motors that it had to return to Dick Kerr/English Electric for major repairs. Regarding the class 55s I also recall reading Locomotive Practice & Performance articles in late 70s editions of the Railway Magazine recording speeds of 115-118 mph whilst working 8 coach rakes of mk2 aircon stock on the ECML, it was even suggested at that time (i think not in the RM) that the performance of the Deltics during that period was more in keeping with a 3800hp loco and not one of 3300hp, I'm sure I still have these magazines in the loft somewhere, no doubt under 2" of dust might have to dig them out sometime and fully refresh my memory.

During works attention oin the 1970's several were rewired and for a while 55.013 was putting out more than the rated hp and was preffered by the crews. on the negative side the increased hp made starting from Kings Cross on wet rails even more dificult

 

[Ash Bridge]

During works attention oin the 1970's several were rewired and for a while 55.013 was putting out more than the rated hp and was preffered by the crews. on the negative side the increased hp made starting from Kings Cross on wet rails even more dificult

Thanks for this, it prompts the question as to whether the uprating suggestions of the late 70s actually stemmed from this?

 

[delt1c]

Thanks for this, it prompts the question as to whether the uprating suggestions of the late 70s actually stemmed from this?

from what i understood, it wasnt so much an uprating of the engine, it was more modern wiring. Somewhere i read (possibly the Deltic Synopsis) of 55.013 during the Pemmanshiel diversions, the loco wasw recorded climbing Beatock giving out a drawbar hp well in excess of normal maximum. The reason given was trhe rewiring.
This then raises the question of what the presserved Deltics are capable of with modern wiring.
Remember 55.022 arriving at Crewe on the Ramsgate and the run to Birmingham. Acceleration was like an EMU that day

 

[Ash Bridge]

from what i understood, it wasnt so much an uprating of the engine, it was more modern wiring. Somewhere i read (possibly the Deltic Synopsis) of 55.013 during the Pemmanshiel diversions, the loco wasw recorded climbing Beatock giving out a drawbar hp well in excess of normal maximum. The reason given was trhe rewiring.
This then raises the question of what the presserved Deltics are capable of with modern wiring.
Remember 55.022 arriving at Crewe on the Ramsgate and the run to Birmingham. Acceleration was like an EMU that day

Interesting stuff, regarding Crewe....Yep! Felt just like there was and AC electric on the front, the only giveaway being the bluey/white exhaust trail, not to mention the speed of that arrival into platform 5

 

[delt1c]

Interesting stuff, regarding Crewe....Yep! Felt just like there was and AC electric on the front, the only giveaway being the bluey/white exhaust trail, not to mention the speed of that arrival into platform 5

was an awesome arrival, never seen a loco hauled service arrive and depart at that rate beforew or since