Wheelchair-bound peer couldn't board after driver refused to request pushchair moved

[Wolfie]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...driver-refused-to-ask-parent-to-a3626911.html

A wheelchair-bound Lib Dem peer has told of her anger after a bus driver refused to ask a parent to move their buggy so she could board a London bus.

Baroness Sal Brinton, who suffers from rheumatoid arthritis, said the bus was “fairly empty” and that the driver was not aware she should be given priority.

She claimed the driver was “not prepared” to ask the parent to move their buggy and that she would have to wait for another bus to Parliament from the Euston area.

Baroness Brinton, who is president of the Lib Dem party, said it was not the first time it had happened while she was trying to travel to Westminster and that in 2015 she was barred from boarding a bus for the same reason.

Transport for London has apologised to Baroness Brinton and launched an investigation.

She told the Standard: “The bus was fairly empty, but regardless – if the wheelchair goes in first you can fit both a buggy and a wheelchair in the space… In fact, that’s exactly what happened when I boarded another bus afterwards.

“I couldn’t see the parent, and the driver did not put down the ramp and said they were not prepared to ask the parent to make space so it made it impossible for me and so I had to wait.”

She added: “It made me very angry, and even more so because this is not the first time this has happened… When this happened to me two years ago, I spoke to TfL and they said they would make sure bus companies trained drivers so that this would be avoided. Clearly that was not the case.”

Time, after the Supreme Court ruling and TfL's own clear policy, for sackings of bus drivers in such a situation methinks.

Any driver sacked in such a situation should also indefinitely forfeit any right to drive a public service vehicle.

 

[otomous]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...driver-refused-to-ask-parent-to-a3626911.html

Time, after the Supreme Court ruling and TfL's own clear policy, for sackings of bus drivers in such a situation methinks.

Any driver sacked in such a situation should also indefinitely forfeit any right to drive a public service vehicle.

Sackings? Such a well thought out response there. Don't assume just because there's a policy that necessary briefings or training has been given. You can probably be sure that drivers have been abused for asking parents to move buggies in the past though, and then placed in the position of the buggy owner's word against him, with no certainty that his employer will back him.

 

[Antman]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...driver-refused-to-ask-parent-to-a3626911.html



Time, after the Supreme Court ruling and TfL's own clear policy, for sackings of bus drivers in such a situation methinks.

Any driver sacked in such a situation should also indefinitely forfeit any right to drive a public service vehicle.

Ridiculous over reaction, do we actually know the full story here? There is a pre recorded message on TfL buses that a driver can activate but if the person refuses to move there is nothing more the driver can do. There is probably more to this story than meets the eye.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I doubt there is much more to it, there is a persistent minority of London bus drivers who simply can't be arsed.

 

[455driver]

So we have one side of the argument and the driver should be sacked, righto then! :roll:

After the Court ruling in which it was declared that wheelchair passengers have equal rights to every other passenger there is no requirement for the driver to ask anyone to move, just as they cant ask any other passenger to move.

Its called equal rights!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

From the photo in the news article it looks like a "Boris Bus", how much luggage space (if any) do they have?

 

[matt_world2004]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...driver-refused-to-ask-parent-to-a3626911.html



Time, after the Supreme Court ruling and TfL's own clear policy, for sackings of bus drivers in such a situation methinks.

Any driver sacked in such a situation should also indefinitely forfeit any right to drive a public service vehicle.

It makes me really angry when a buggy refuses to move for a wheelchair. I dont think tfl help themselves on the matter however. Buses should not incur service delay fines for refusing to move when a puschair owner refuses to fold their pram. Also RPIs should be willing to report people for prosecution for refusal to fold puschairs.(Its a bylaw offence)

 

[Antman]

I doubt there is much more to it, there is a persistent minority of London bus drivers who simply can't be arsed.

Apart from playing the pre recorded message what are drivers supposed to do?

 

[Antman]

It makes me really angry when a buggy refuses to move for a wheelchair. I dont think tfl help themselves on the matter however. Buses should not incur service delay fines for refusing to move when a puschair owner refuses to fold their pram. Also RPIs should be willing to report people for prosecution for refusal to fold puschairs.(Its a bylaw offence)

Reality is that if somebody is unable or unwilling to fold their buggy then nothing more can be done, either ban all unfolded buggies or accept the current situation. Don't put the onus on the driver.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Was there the space to safely store a folded buggy?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Im tawn here between loyalty with a fellow disabled bus user, loyalty to the bus sdriver who probably cannot be bothered with yet another fowl mouthed tirade by a selfish buggy owner and a general dislike of the house of Lords and the LibDems!
From observations I have found generally the auto announcement on TFL vehicles humiliates enough buggy pushers into action to not make this such a huge issue, the bus hopper price will also allow anyone unwilling/unable to fold their buggy up to leave the bus and catch the next one.

 

[baz962]

Just reading this and have a question as I never use buses let alone in London. What are the rules and why the onus on the driver I mean disabled or not if you got what it takes to be in parliament surely you can ask the pushchair owner , doesn't the baroness mouth work she is in a position of privilege and probably earns well compared to the driver and would more likely know about the abuse and the burden of running to timetable.
I bet if he ended up in a row with the buggy owner and then running late the baroness would want him sacked for that instead.

 

[Antman]

Im tawn here between loyalty with a fellow disabled bus user, loyalty to the bus sdriver who probably cannot be bothered with yet another fowl mouthed tirade by a selfish buggy owner and a general dislike of the house of Lords and the LibDems!
From observations I have found generally the auto announcement on TFL vehicles humiliates enough buggy pushers into action to not make this such a huge issue, the bus hopper price will also allow anyone unwilling/unable to fold their buggy up to leave the bus and catch the next one.

In debates like this why do some people automatically assume that the buggy owner is in the wrong?

The auto announcement doesn't humiliate anybody, in the vast majority of cases people will willingly move as required to accommodate the wheelchair but inevitably there will be cases where it is not possible.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just reading this and have a question as I never use buses let alone in London. What are the rules and why the onus on the driver I mean disabled or not if you got what it takes to be in parliament surely you can ask the pushchair owner , doesn't the baroness mouth work she is in a position of privilege and probably earns well compared to the driver and would more likely know about the abuse and the burden of running to timetable.
I bet if he ended up in a row with the buggy owner and then running late the baroness would want him sacked for that instead.

Rather incredible you suggest it should be up to the disabled to assert their rights personally rather than have them protected for them, in law, by the service provider.

She was not even on the bus! Are you suggesting she should have leant forward and bellowed down the bus, at someone she perhaps could not see?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Whilst disabled people are quite capable of using our own voice when protecting our basic rights in an unequal world this situation is very challenging as a wheelchair user or assistance dog owner cant very well bord the vehicle on spec and potentially have to get off again.

I am sorry if I offend any acceptional buggy owners on here but my experience is that the majority of such people on public transport care about nobody but themselves and sometimes can't drag themselves away from their phone long enough to stop their infant screaming let alone show any kind of curtacy to fellow passengers.

Have I simply been unlucky?

I do have friends with kids and even some of them are as guilty but I do stress SOME.

 

[baz962]

Wasn't suggesting anything was asking I did say I was wondering as we all know the driver would be damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Like I said was asking because I didn't know but you assume I was just disabled bashing , and that's just as big a problem in this world, I ask a question so I can be better informed or more helpful if I am ever in the situation and how in the world do you expect people to help, when if I was a bit weaker minded than I am think why should I bother .

 

[AlterEgo]

Wasn't suggesting anything was asking I did say I was wondering as we all know the driver would be damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Like I said was asking because I didn't know but you assume I was just disabled bashing , and that's just as big a problem in this world, I ask a question so I can be better informed or more helpful if I am ever in the situation and how in the world do you expect people to help, when if I was a bit weaker minded than I am think why should I bother .

That's an ironic response when at no point in my reply did I suggest you were disabled-bashing at all. I suspect you failed the read the opening post fully, as well as mine. Your response was however ill-thought out, placing responsibility on the disabled woman because, irrelevantly,

she is in a position of privilege and probably earns well compared to the driver

because

I mean disabled or not if you got what it takes to be in parliament surely you can ask the pushchair owner , doesn't the baroness mouth work

and then supposing, with no evidence at all, that

if he ended up in a row with the buggy owner and then running late the baroness would want him sacked for that instead.

...as if the baroness is somehow being completely unreasonable and impossible!

The point is: you cannot suggest that the woman, who is outside the bus, on the pavement, in a wheelchair with the ramp having not been deployed, "use her voice" to assert her own rights. This is in the middle of London and she would need to lean forward (if she can), and shout loudly down the bus at a person she probably cannot see. Because she, at this point, has not seen the parent with the pushchair, or the bus interior, she has no idea if there is a good reason why she cannot put the pushchair away. Your suggestion isn't disabled bashing, it just fails to understand any of the circumstances.

It is not up to individual disabled people to assert their own rights by shouting. Their rights should be protected in law and respected by transport companies. I would have thought this was obvious.

As it stands, the bus company is not compelled to make someone move from the wheelchair space, though they should "go further than" simply asking them to move, for example by phrasing it a "requirement" or refusing to move the bus until the standoff is resolved. This places responsibility on the driver. It is not a case of "he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't", it's a case of he's only damned if he doesn't take all reasonable steps to get the non-wheelchair user to move.

 

[matt_world2004]

Reality is that if somebody is unable or unwilling to fold their buggy then nothing more can be done, either ban all unfolded buggies or accept the current situation. Don't put the onus on the driver.

It doesnt it puts the onus on tfl to deter hogging the wheelchair space through fines and prosecutions.There is provision in the London transport bylaws for prosecuting this behaviour. One or two high profile cases ill act as a deterrent against parents doing it again.

 

[matt_world2004]

Im tawn here between loyalty with a fellow disabled bus user, loyalty to the bus sdriver who probably cannot be bothered with yet another fowl mouthed tirade by a selfish buggy owner and a general dislike of the house of Lords and the LibDems!
From observations I have found generally the auto announcement on TFL vehicles humiliates enough buggy pushers into action to not make this such a huge issue, the bus hopper price will also allow anyone unwilling/unable to fold their buggy up to leave the bus and catch the next one.

They dont even need to use the hopper ticket if a parent gets off because their buggy is unsuitable procedure says they are to be issued with a transfer ticket.

 

[baz962]

No I wasn't suggesting I was asking and I thought rightly or wrongly that she must have been close enough as otherwise how could she see the buggy . Read what I posted properly I don't know I don't use buses I wasn't suggesting or implying just wanting to be better informed asking so you could make me better informed , and wondering if the driver was on a loser whatever he did .

 

[Bletchleyite]

In London, given the large buses used, it probably wouldn't be out of the question to have a separate buggy and wheelchair space, and have inspectors issue Byelaw prosecutions for the occupation of the wheelchair space with anything other than a wheelchair user or (if full[1]) standing passengers.

[1] Precedent does not state that able bodied passengers must leave the bus to accommodate a wheelchair user; if it's full it's full, but in such a case nobody else is allowed on, whether in a wheelchair or not. Though "3 standing passengers for 1 wheelchair user" probably needs to go in principle.

 

[AlterEgo]

No I wasn't suggesting I was asking

You were asking why she could not do this, which is basically a suggestion that she should have tried this, as apparently you were unsure if her mouth worked. That's what a suggestion is by inference - "why did you not do X?" is not only a question, it is also a suggestion that you might have liked to try X, particularly when coupled with assertions she was more responsible than the driver here because she has money/influence/etc.

and I thought rightly or wrongly that she must have been close enough as otherwise how could she see the buggy.

That's because you didn't read the OP. I recommend you read it in full.

Read what I posted properly

I have, and I am quoting it. (Also see above re: reading posts properly)

wondering if the driver was on a loser whatever he did .

Oh, I see, but when you said

we all know the driver would be damned if he did and damned if he didn't

...it doesn't sound like you leave much to wonderment.

 

[Antman]

It doesnt it puts the onus on tfl to deter hogging the wheelchair space through fines and prosecutions.There is provision in the London transport bylaws for prosecuting this behaviour. One or two high profile cases ill act as a deterrent against parents doing it again.

Fines and prosecutions? Get real.

This issue was discussed briefly on sky news this morning and as one of the guests pointed out it is often simply impossible for somebody to fold up a buggy on a crowded bus. What if the child is asleep? What if there are other items of shopping in the buggy? What does the parent do with the child whilst folding the buggy? Hand them to a complete stranger?

And what nobody seems to have considered, what if the buggy owner is themselves disabled and not physically able to fold and unfold the buggy? What if the child in the buggy has some disability?

There are so many possible scenarios and the bus driver cannot be expected to act as judge and jury as to who is more deserving of the available space.

In the vast majority of cases there isn't a problem but inevitably there will be from time to time and we just have to accept the current situation. It's not perfect but very few things in life are.

 

[baz962]

You were asking why she could not do this, which is basically a suggestion that she should have tried this, as apparently you were unsure if her mouth worked. That's what a suggestion is by inference - "why did you not do X?" is not only a question, it is also a suggestion that you might have liked to try X, particularly when coupled with assertions she was more responsible than the driver here because she has money/influence/etc.



That's because you didn't read the OP. I recommend you read it in full.



I have, and I am quoting it. (Also see above re: reading posts properly)



Oh, I see, but when you said



...it doesn't sound like you leave much to wonderment.

And your suggestion was refuse to move the bus until standoff ended so maybe for a long time blocking the bus stop making potentially hundreds of people late for work or hospital appointments etc then eventually blocking the road including emergency vehicles good one well thought out .

 

[AlterEgo]

And your suggestion was refuse to move the bus until standoff ended so maybe for a long time blocking the bus stop making potentially hundreds of people late for work or hospital appointments etc then eventually blocking the road including emergency vehicles good one well thought out .

Baz, that's not my suggestion, that's the ruling of the Supreme Court. That is the law, and it is what should have happened.

 

[matt_world2004]

Fines and prosecutions? Get real.

This issue was discussed briefly on sky news this morning and as one of the guests pointed out it is often simply impossible for somebody to fold up a buggy on a crowded bus. What if the child is asleep? What if there are other items of shopping in the buggy? What does the parent do with the child whilst folding the buggy? Hand them to a complete stranger?

And what nobody seems to have considered, what if the buggy owner is themselves disabled and not physically able to fold and unfold the buggy? What if the child in the buggy has some disability?

There are so many possible scenarios and the bus driver cannot be expected to act as judge and jury as to who is more deserving of the available space.

In the vast majority of cases there isn't a problem but inevitably there will be from time to time and we just have to accept the current situation. It's not perfect but very few things in life are.

The driver doesnt need to act as a judge and jury over who gets the space. It already identifies who has priority in the transport for london bylaws who has priority over the space and its a bylaw offence not to fold the buggy when requested to do so already.

So what if the baby is asleep if a parent doesnt know how to take care of a baby they shouldnt have had one. I wonder what you would call a buggy carrying a disabled child, oh yes- A wheelchair and if the parents are they themselves disabled. There are already appropriate mechanisms to deal with that, the passenger support card can be given to the driver indicating this. Or the the please offer me a seat badge.

And your suggestion was refuse to move the bus until standoff ended so maybe for a long time blocking the bus stop making potentially hundreds of people late for work or hospital appointments etc then eventually blocking the road including emergency vehicles good one well thought out .

Bus stops and stands are usually recessed away from the road, in dedicated bus lanes and even if not the bus driver can use their judgement on if it is appropriate to do so, like in refusal to pay the fare cases.

 

[baz962]

Baz, that's not my suggestion, that's the ruling of the Supreme Court. That is the law, and it is what should have happened.

Not saying it is or isn't like I said I didn't know I wanted to learn and I am , yes a bit guilty of bringing up her privelaged status but she said she saw a buggy and saw the bus was empty but could not see the parent it does appear she was seeing what she wanted too and law or not if the driver potentially gets dogs abuse from hundreds or upsets one , well can't blame him . On a side note my wife was a bus driver for 15 years until this year on a FREE service for the last ten and her and her colleagues got abuse permanently. I am an ex security pro and I would not drive a bus for double what I get now .

 

[daikilo]

The situation regarding buggies on TfL services is quite clear:
https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/getting-around-with-your-buggy

I quote:
**All buses have a wheelchair space available. Wheelchair users have priority over the space as it is the only place they can travel safely. When a wheelchair user is not using the space, you can use it on a first come first served basis.

If a wheelchair user wishes to board a bus, you should share the space, fold your buggy or move. You will not be asked to leave the bus, but you may choose to do so. If you wish to board the next bus instead, the driver will issue you a transfer ticket so you don't need to pay a double fare.**

It is therefore clear that it is not a buggy space but a wheelchair space. Some might question the definition of wheelchair as it does not specifically state "occupied by a disabled person".

As I have said in other similar threads, it would be good to have this wording affixed within the space with typeface sufficiently large as to be easily readable.

 

[AlterEgo]

she said she saw a buggy and saw the bus was empty but could not see the parent it does appear she was seeing what she wanted too

No, she wasn't seeing what she wanted to!

She makes it clear what she saw - a half-empty bus, a pushchair in the wheelchair space, but no parent. She also saw the driver, who, if her story is true, seemed unaware the law required him to even ask the person to move. The driver said "they were not prepared to ask the parent to make space". This is wrong. The driver is not supposed to be judge and jury, but according to the law should take reasonable measures to change the behaviour of someone who has put their unfolded pushchair in the wheelchair space.

I don't understand why this is so contentious. The driver failed in his duty to take reasonable steps to ensure the disabled passenger could make their journey.

You might not like the law, and God knows this one isn't perfect, but it is the law and should be respected.

 

[AlterEgo]

In the vast majority of cases there isn't a problem but inevitably there will be from time to time and we just have to accept the current situation. It's not perfect but very few things in life are.

That's a fine thing to say, and broadly true. Above all of this however is the requirement to comply with the law, which was clarified by the Supreme Court, even if we think the law is crap or flawed. That doesn't appear to have happened in this case.