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Wheels flats

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Steddenm

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Was travelling on a T&W Metro yesterday and it was one hell of a rough and noisy ride that felt like it had derailed slightly as you could hear every sleeper.

Spoke to a member of Nexus staff who said that it was due to “flat wheels”.

Is this the suspension that’s gone or the wheels have somehow got a flat bit to them?

Also how safe is it to run with one of these?
 
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RichJF

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I've been on a few 377's recently with noticeable flat wheels especially at the rear of the train. Tweeted Southern & the unit was subsequently taken out of service!

I think flat spots occur when the axle doesn't rotate as fast as the others and is dragged along, creating the spot on the wheels. Also caused by wheelslip as well I think.
 

A Challenge

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There was a piece on Flat wheels (on an HST) on Paddington 24/7 this week and it said they had to operate at 50 mph after detection (it was on a journey) (though that's not a problem on the Tyne and Wear Metro), and take it out of service at the end of that journey.
 

randyrippley

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Wiki explanation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_spot
"A flat spot, or wheel flat, is a fault in railroad wheel shape. A flat spot occurs when a rail vehicle's wheelset is dragged along the rail after the wheel/axle has stopped rotating. Flat spots are usually caused by use of the emergency brake, or slip and slide conditions that causes wheels to lock up while the train is still moving. Flat spots are more common in the autumn and winter when the rails are slippery. Flat spots can also be caused by faulty brakes or wheelset bearings."

A good overview https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/10/17/detecting-wheel-flats-and-more/
"The flat spot occurs when a rail vehicle’s wheelset is dragged along the rail after the wheel/axle has stopped rotating. Flat spots are usually caused by use of the emergency brake, or slip and slide conditions that cause wheels to lock up while the train is still moving. Flat spots are more common in the autumn and winter when the rails are slippery, but can also be caused by faulty brakes or wheelset bearings.
Once these flats are created, they provide the characteristic ‘thump-thump-thump’ that can be heard by rail passengers during autumn as the damaged wheels impact the hard rails beneath them. The sound is generated as the edges of the wheel flat impact on the rail, but, as the sharp corners of the flat are worn away over time, the noise reduces, making human detection difficult.
If the flat spot is very small, the rail vehicle will be able to continue being used. The fault is removed later in the wheelset turning process. However, because of the heat suffered while being dragged along the rail and the impacts suffered afterward, these wheels are more likely to break due to changes in the alloy structure. If the flat spot is very large, strands of molten metal may have got stuck on one side of the flat spot, making it impossible for the wheel to turn due to insufficient clearance between the rolling surface and the brake block. In this case, the wheelset must be replaced immediately. In extreme cases, a wheel with an untreated flat spot can damage the track and cause a derailment.
Otherwise smooth but ‘out of round’ wheels generate ever more force as the train gets faster until the forces become very damaging to the rails. At their extreme, these forces can be large enough to break rails which already have small cracks or defects in them."
 
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hexagon789

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I've been on a few 377's recently with noticeable flat wheels especially at the rear of the train. Tweeted Southern & the unit was subsequently taken out of service!

I think flat spots occur when the axle doesn't rotate as fast as the others and is dragged along, creating the spot on the wheels. Also caused by wheelslip as well I think.

Mostly caused by heavy braking locking the wheels up as you say. 156s up here are quite bad for wheel flats in the autumn.
 

hexagon789

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Was travelling on a T&W Metro yesterday and it was one hell of a rough and noisy ride that felt like it had derailed slightly as you could hear every sleeper.

Spoke to a member of Nexus staff who said that it was due to “flat wheels”.

Is this the suspension that’s gone or the wheels have somehow got a flat bit to them?

Also how safe is it to run with one of these?

Depends how deep the flats are, Wheelslip Protection is meant to protect the wheels from developing flats by partially releasing and re-applying the brakes to maintain a braking rate that the avaliable level of grip/adhesion can sustain but not all trains have WSP for braking (156s only have Wheelspin protection for powering, though Greater Anglia's are being retrofitted) and the effectiveness of the systems in use varies varies.
 

hexagon789

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There was a piece on Flat wheels (on an HST) on Paddington 24/7 this week and it said they had to operate at 50 mph after detection (it was on a journey) (though that's not a problem on the Tyne and Wear Metro), and take it out of service at the end of that journey.

The GWR HSTs have a poorer WSP system than some other HSTs, so are still prone to wheel-lock.
 

eisenach

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I used the Overground on the North London line twice yesterday, and both sets had noticeable chugga-chugga noise, presumably coming from wheel flats.
 

WatcherZero

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Small wheel flats aren't an immediate danger but they do increase the risk of the wheel cracking from the stress of being hammered, severe wheel flats can also damage the rails which is a more pressing concern, particularly if they already have defects like cracks or chips.
 

sw1ller

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There was a piece on Flat wheels (on an HST) on Paddington 24/7 this week and it said they had to operate at 50 mph after detection (it was on a journey) (though that's not a problem on the Tyne and Wear Metro), and take it out of service at the end of that journey.

Just wondering where they got 50mph from? Possibly an instruction from the signaller. But if they’re deemed to be more serious flats, but less than 60mm, the rule book states you need to go no more than 20mph. Strange. (Rule book TW5 section 26)
 

hexagon789

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Just wondering where they got 50mph from? Possibly an instruction from the signaller. But if they’re deemed to be more serious flats, but less than 60mm, the rule book states you need to go no more than 20mph. Strange. (Rule book TW5 section 26)

Don't kno where it comes from, but I've heard 50 mph for flats quoted in the past as well as 20 mph.
 

Highlandspring

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Don't kno where it comes from, but I've heard 50 mph for flats quoted in the past as well as 20 mph.
On Network Rail controlled infrastructure wheelflats detected by lineside equipment known as Wheel Impact Load Detectors (WILD) such as Wheelchex or GOTCHA are subject to various speed restrictions - up to and including immediately stopping the train - based on the level of force imparted on the rail and the type of train involved. Network Rail Control on the various routes monitor the detectors and manage the imposition of these restrictions.
 
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alex17595

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On Network Rail controlled infrastructure wheelflats detected by lineside equipment known as Wheel Impact Load Detectors (WILD) such as Wheelchex or GOTCHA are subject to various speed restrictions - up to and including immediately stopping the train - based on the level of force imparted on the rail and the type of train involved. Network Rail Control on the various routes monitor the detectors and manage the imposition of these restrictions. I've uploaded a screenshot to show the sort of information given when an alarm is generated.
View attachment 45267


There is a couple of examples of this in one of the Paddington station documentarys. Not sure which episode though.
 

edwin_m

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Sometimes the slide doesn't wear the wheel away noticeably but (as mentioned above) the heat can change the structure of the steel to a more brittle type. The noise may not appear until sometime later when this cracks and falls away.
 

hexagon789

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On Network Rail controlled infrastructure wheelflats detected by lineside equipment known as Wheel Impact Load Detectors (WILD) such as Wheelchex or GOTCHA are subject to various speed restrictions - up to and including immediately stopping the train - based on the level of force imparted on the rail and the type of train involved. Network Rail Control on the various routes monitor the detectors and manage the imposition of these restrictions. I've uploaded a screenshot to show the sort of information given when an alarm is generated.
View attachment 45267

Interesting, so presumably different limits apply depending on the information generated then?
 
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What is the normal life of a wheel?

It should last the life of the bogie - from C4 to C4, that can be time/mileage based, but as an example 250,000 miles or 4 years. Obviously a faulty WSP system that isn’t fixed can cause flats to be caused on freshly turned wheel sets and if this happens too often, they can get too small before the overhaul date.

Even with small flats, if they are left too long, the metal changes structure under the surface and when the lathe cuts through it, underlying damage/metal fatigue can be seen and has to be removed, taking more off the wheels than initially thought. This then has a knock on effect, as you have to turn other axles to maintain the parity tolerances.
 

hexagon789

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Blimey, not much left with tyres now, AFAIK all passenger stock has monobloc wheels, some locos still have tyres.

I'm sure in Paddington 24/7 one of the maintenance guys said the tyres on a power car lasted 2 years or 4 turns on a lathe normally.
 
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I'm sure in Paddington 24/7 one of the maintenance guys said the tyres on a power car lasted 2 years or 4 turns on a lathe normally.

Well he was wrong, power cars are definitely monobloc and if they are condition tyre turned, they last longer than reactive turning, it depends how much is taken off each time how many times they can be turned. Minor damage is removed by the parking brake blocks, as they act as scrubbers.
 

hexagon789

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Well he was wrong, power cars are definitely monobloc and if they are condition tyre turned, they last longer than reactive turning, it depends how much is taken off each time how many times they can be turned. Minor damage is removed by the parking brake blocks, as they act as scrubbers.

It may be the way the programme was edited which gave that impression rather than the chap himself but I'm positive tyres were mentioned.
 
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It may be the way the programme was edited which gave that impression rather than the chap himself but I'm positive tyres were mentioned.

The term tyre turning is still used to cover all turning, this includes locos fitted with tyres and the vast majority of stock that don’t have tyres, maybe that’s where any confusion arose, but rest assured, power cars don’t have tyres and in extreme circumstances the wheel sets have been replaced in just over 12 months as an extreme, but they often go the distance of C4-C4.
 

millemille

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What is the normal life of a wheel?

Most modern EMU's and DEMU's have wheels with a new diameter of 844mm and a last turn diameter of 782mm and a scrap diameter of 776 mm. So you've got about 35 mm of rim thickness to account for wear - which is typically 2mm diameter loss per 100,000 miles covered - and removing any tread damage.

Ideally you want your wheelsets to require replacement, due to reaching the scrap size, at a bogie overhaul (C4) to minimise the impact upon train availability. C4's are typically every 500,000 miles, or greater, and if the maintainer has got a decent wheelset management regime in place (where they turn the wheels pro-actively to catch mileage driven tread defects such as Rolling Contact Fatigue and before each leaf fall season they make sure the Wheel Slide Protection system, if fitted, is working properly and generally get the fleet in a state that means it stands the best chance of getting through leaf fall intact) them making 2 C4 cycles for over 90% of wheelsets is possible.
 

hexagon789

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The term tyre turning is still used to cover all turning, this includes locos fitted with tyres and the vast majority of stock that don’t have tyres, maybe that’s where any confusion arose, but rest assured, power cars don’t have tyres and in extreme circumstances the wheel sets have been replaced in just over 12 months as an extreme, but they often go the distance of C4-C4.

How often are C4 performed, yearly?
 
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