When did Mk1/2 loco hauled services end on the ECML

[ryan125hst]

I spent some time last week looking at some old carriage working books from the 1970's and 80's that are available to view on a Yahoo group. It is really interesting to see the formations of the trains of the era as well as get an insight of the timetable of the time. The information goes well back into the steam era when compartment coaches prevailed, right up until the late 70's and into the 80's, by which time air conditioned Mark 2 open coaches were the usual coaching stock used, as well as older Mark 1 vehicles on relief trains.

The final year for the information that is available online is 1981, by which time most services were operated by HST's. Interestingly, comparing the information from 1981 to a GNER timetable from 2006, the service patterns were remarkably similar!* The only services that seem to have been removed were those from London to Cleethorpes, Scarborough and Skegness, as well as relief trains to York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. The sleeper trains have gone as well of course.

So that got me thinking, when did these loco hauled services end? Was it the introduction of the Intercity 225's that saw them removed from the timetable, or did they end prior to this?

*A departure on the hour to Edinburgh or beyond, at 30 minutes past the hour to Newcastle (xx35 in '81) and at 10 past the hour to Leeds (xx50 in '81). It appears that it was only with the Allington Chord that a second hourly service to Leeds was introduced, and further changes occurred with the Eureka timetable in 2011).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Intercity 225s/Class 91 services are, of course, still 'locomotive hauled' in one direction at least.

 

[ryan125hst]

Intercity 225s/Class 91 services are, of course, still 'locomotive hauled' in one direction at least.

I was expecting this comment!

It is certainly true, but I am referring to Mark 1 and 2 coaches hauled by Class 47's etc. instead of the fixed formation 225's

 

[Bevan Price]

The Newcastle - York part of ECML had daily loco-hauled trains (Newcastle - Liverpool) until about 1990 or 1991. Some summer saturday services over parts of ECML also continued until the early 1990s. A few (diesel) loco hauled trains also reached Kings Cross until electrification was completed.

 

[43096]

I was expecting this comment!

It is certainly true, but I am referring to Mark 1 and 2 coaches hauled by Class 47's etc. instead of the fixed formation 225's

They still run today on charter trains. You didn't specify service trains....

 

[Royston Vasey]

The Newcastle - York part of ECML had daily loco-hauled trains (Newcastle - Liverpool) until about 1990 or 1991. Some summer saturday services over parts of ECML also continued until the early 1990s. A few (diesel) loco hauled trains also reached Kings Cross until electrification was completed.

Not forgetting cross country until 2002

 

[ainsworth74]

I have amended the thread title to something that I think is a bit closer to what the OP meant. As already mentioned loco hauled services continue to this day (and will continue for some time with the TPE Mk5 order and charter services)!

 

[Mag_seven]

The unique class 89001 hauled a few Mark II operated services in the late 80's. Example here (not mine):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/142344871@N02/35373382384

 

[a good off]

The KX - Hull services were hauled up until about 1989 and booked for a 47.

The Peterborough commuter services were also hauled up until about 1990 using a mixed bag of Mk1’s and Mk2’s.

 

[ryan125hst]

I have amended the thread title to something that I think is a bit closer to what the OP meant. As already mentioned loco hauled services continue to this day (and will continue for some time with the TPE Mk5 order and charter services)!

Thank you, I really should have made the original title a bit clearer.

The KX - Hull services were hauled up until about 1989 and booked for a 47.

The Peterborough commuter services were also hauled up until about 1990 using a mixed bag of Mk1’s and Mk2’s.

So InterCity services out of Kings Cross were loco hauled until 1989, so about the time the 225's were introduced.

What replaced Mk1's and 2's on the Peterborough commuter services? The 365's didn't arrive until the mid 1995.

 

[theblackwatch]

I remember the 89 (with a surrogate HST set) being used on the Peterborough commuter, so I assume that took over from the old loco-hauled rake.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 89 usually worked a 17.36 off King's Cross for Peterborough, often with a scratch rake behind it.

Later the same train - I think with Mk 3 stock - saw the first public workings of the class 91 ahead of the full fleet introduction.

 

[RichmondCommu]

What replaced Mk1's and 2's on the Peterborough commuter services? The 365's didn't arrive until the mid 1995.

Class 317s?

 

[delt1c]

Class 317s?

it caused a big outcry as 2+2 seating in hailed stock was replaced with 3+2 317's.

 

[sprinterguy]

So InterCity services out of Kings Cross were loco hauled until 1989, so about the time the 225's were introduced.

Photographic evidence seems to show that a limited number (possibly Sunday only) of loco-hauled mark 2 services operated between Kings Cross and Leeds until at least late 1991, hauled by either the 89 or a 90.

 

[DarloRich]

Photographic evidence seems to show that a limited number (possibly Sunday only) of loco-hauled mark 2 services operated between Kings Cross and Leeds until at least late 1991, hauled by either the 89 or a 90.

Agreed - I would say they lasted until about that time. They went from the northern section of the line somewhat earlier. Well at least the intercity ones did. The XC ones ran for a bit longer. I would say they ran until the late 1990's/early 2000's

 

[sprinterguy]

Well at least the intercity ones did. The XC ones ran for a bit longer. I would say they ran until the late 1990's/early 2000's

Crosscountry class 47 workings ceased in August 2002. I'm not exactly sure when their last workings on the ECML were, but it wasn't much before then.

 

[DarloRich]

Crosscountry class 47 workings ceased in August 2002. I'm not exactly sure when their last workings on the ECML were, but it wasn't much before then.

not a bad guess

 

[Mag_seven]

Photographic evidence seems to show that a limited number (possibly Sunday only) of loco-hauled mark 2 services operated between Kings Cross and Leeds until at least late 1991, hauled by either the 89 or a 90.

Yes - please see post #8.

 

[a good off]

https://flic.kr/p/xu4zXT

https://flic.kr/p/a6E542

 

[MontyP]

The KX - Hull services were hauled up until about 1989 and booked for a 47.

The Peterborough commuter services were also hauled up until about 1990 using a mixed bag of Mk1’s and Mk2’s.

I’m fairly sure that the Hull Executive was an HST by 1985 when I lived in Hull. By then I think this was the only daily service between London and Hull.

 

[PaxmanValenta]

The Newcastle - York part of ECML had daily loco-hauled trains (Newcastle - Liverpool) until about 1990 or 1991. Some summer saturday services over parts of ECML also continued until the early 1990s. A few (diesel) loco hauled trains also reached Kings Cross until electrification was completed.

And post privatisation virgin often operated Cross country loco hauled class 47 and class 67 trains on the ECML between Edinburgh and Doncaster going onto Plymouth or Penzance. They often pulled MK2 D stock in the early years and mostly MK2F stock later. This was between 1996 to 2003 when sadly the Voyagers took over

 

[PaxmanValenta]

Crosscountry class 47 workings ceased in August 2002. I'm not exactly sure when their last workings on the ECML were, but it wasn't much before then.

Virgin XC loco hauled services came back in 2004 because the Voyagers could not cope with the high demand in summer, overcrowding, lack of luggage space, uncomfortable for passengers doing the whole journey like Newcastle to Newquay, etc.

Often the loco hauled services that covered for Voyagers were MK2F’s hauled by a class 66 or 67. They went too and from Plymouth or Newquay or Paignton to Newcastle and Edinburgh so would have joined the ECML at Doncaster.

 

[PaxmanValenta]

I spent some time last week looking at some old carriage working books from the 1970's and 80's that are available to view on a Yahoo group. It is really interesting to see the formations of the trains of the era as well as get an insight of the timetable of the time. The information goes well back into the steam era when compartment coaches prevailed, right up until the late 70's and into the 80's, by which time air conditioned Mark 2 open coaches were the usual coaching stock used, as well as older Mark 1 vehicles on relief trains.

The final year for the information that is available online is 1981, by which time most services were operated by HST's. Interestingly, comparing the information from 1981 to a GNER timetable from 2006, the service patterns were remarkably similar!* The only services that seem to have been removed were those from London to Cleethorpes, Scarborough and Skegness, as well as relief trains to York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. The sleeper trains have gone as well of course.

So that got me thinking, when did these loco hauled services end? Was it the introduction of the Intercity 225's that saw them removed from the timetable, or did they end prior to this?

*A departure on the hour to Edinburgh or beyond, at 30 minutes past the hour to Newcastle (xx35 in '81) and at 10 past the hour to Leeds (xx50 in '81). It appears that it was only with the Allington Chord that a second hourly service to Leeds was introduced, and further changes occurred with the Eureka timetable in 2011).

Hi
Where would I find this Yahoo group of carriage workings? Could you provide a link please.

 

[30907]

This one possibly?
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info

 

[sprinterguy]

Virgin XC loco hauled services came back in 2004 because the Voyagers could not cope with the high demand in summer, overcrowding, lack of luggage space, uncomfortable for passengers doing the whole journey like Newcastle to Newquay, etc.

Often the loco hauled services that covered for Voyagers were MK2F’s hauled by a class 66 or 67. They went too and from Plymouth or Newquay or Paignton to Newcastle and Edinburgh so would have joined the ECML at Doncaster.

Those were limited summer Saturday (and Sunday?) services for a brief handful of years, though, far removed from the routine operation of class 47s and mark 2s from a few years earlier but admittedly still within the scope of the original query. I don't recall any of these services being class 66 worked, though; their 75mph top speed would be somewhat detrimental to the schedules, and I seem to remember plenty of late running with the 67s as it is!

 

[falcon]

I’m fairly sure that the Hull Executive was an HST by 1985 when I lived in Hull. By then I think this was the only daily service between London and Hull.

Hull Exec was HST from at least 1982.

 

[dubscottie]

There were regular 47 hauled Kings Cross - Edinburgh loco hauled trains on certain dates until at least 1991. I have Motive Power Monthly magazines with pics of them. Usually Mk1 sets.

 

[nicjoynson]

Resurrecting this thread, I have an image of 47620 taken on Sunday 14th June 1987 taken at Hadley Wood, working a down train of early Mk 2 NSE coaches in the early afternoon. I seem to remember this was a booked working at the time on Sundays... one of a small number out of the 'cross. Can anyone identify the working?

Nic

 

[47513 Severn]

Resurrecting this thread, I have an image of 47620 taken on Sunday 14th June 1987 taken at Hadley Wood, working a down train of early Mk 2 NSE coaches in the early afternoon. I seem to remember this was a booked working at the time on Sundays... one of a small number out of the 'cross. Can anyone identify the working?

Nic

If they were NSE liveried coaches it was likely to be a diverted London to Kings Lynn service, either originating at King's Cross or coming from Liverpool Street via the North London line.