When did the CrossCountry franchise stop running via Carlisle?

[charlee]

How come the cross-country route no longer uses the west cost main line past Manchester via Carlisle anymore? I used to travel plymouth-Glasgow via Carlisle way back when I was wee. But I see it now goes via Newcastle and Edinburgh before going to Glasgow central? Is this a thing the current franchise has always done? I didn't realise they had changed the route until now ha.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Part of the changes when Virgin lost the cross-country franchise - the Birmingham-Preston-Scotland services transferred to the West Coast franchise and the former Central Trains Nottingham-Cardiff and Stansted Airport-Birmingham New St transferred to the new (Arriva) CrossCountry. I'm not sure why it changed, but the impression I get generally (both from here and other media) is that it should have stayed with the XC franchise.

 

[ValleyLines142]

It does seem a little impractical. Consider a journey from Glasgow to Birmingham. Virgin takes four hours, CrossCountry takes five because it goes via Edinburgh and Newcastle! It would be very interesting to see CrossCountry services go via the West Coast, although I imagine there's a lack of paths available!

 

[David]

Because the Birmingham - Scotland flow was tranferred to Virgin, with the Manchester - Scotland flow transferred to TPE when Arriva awarded the XC franchise to Arriva.

This wasn't a plan from any of the TOCs, but instead the DfT.

 

[D1009]

It does seem a little impractical. Consider a journey from Glasgow to Birmingham. Virgin takes four hours, CrossCountry takes five because it goes via Edinburgh and Newcastle! It would be very interesting to see CrossCountry services go via the West Coast, although I imagine there's a lack of paths available!

XC actually take over six hours, but some people do it because XC's advance tickets are cheaper.

 

[ryan125hst]

Because the Birmingham - Scotland flow was tranferred to Virgin, with the Manchester - Scotland flow transferred to TPE when Arriva awarded the XC franchise to Arriva.

Where did the stock come from for this? The Voyager's would have already be in use on the Birmingham to Glasgow route, but how did TPE manage to find enough Class 185's to cover the Manchester Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh route?

 

[David]

It was a case of some 221s transferring to Virgin for the Birmingham runs, and stock efficiencies at TPE to make enough unites available. IE. Services that used 2 units were split so there was enough units available for the Scotland services.

 

[Robinson]

Where did the stock come from for this? The Voyager's would have already be in use on the Birmingham to Glasgow route, but how did TPE manage to find enough Class 185's to cover the Manchester Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh route?

By taking units off other routes so most of their trains are too short and (in standard class at least) are all rammed to the gunnels.

When I was at boarding school in Manchester I used to travel home to Scotland regularly, using the TPE Blackpool North services to connect with Virgin at Preston. First class on TPE got declassified extremely regularly...

 

[tbtc]

The nature of "Cross Country" services in the UK means that there are a lot more services north of Birmingham (Liverpool, Glasgow, Manchester, Nottingham, Newcastle, Edinburgh etc) than there are south of Birmingham (Cardiff, Bristol, Plymouth, Reading, Bournemouth).

Hence the WCML service to Glasgow/ Edinburgh now terminating at New Street (as happened to the Liverpool service), in which case it makes sense for it to be run by the WCML franchise.

Where did the stock come from for this? The Voyager's would have already be in use on the Birmingham to Glasgow route, but how did TPE manage to find enough Class 185's to cover the Manchester Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh route?

By cutting the Windermere service to a shuttle and by downgrading many journeys on the Cleethorpes route to a two coach 170. But it freed up Voyagers for more Chester - London services so that mattered more to some.

 

[calc7]

It was a case of some 221s transferring to Virgin for the Birmingham runs, and stock efficiencies at TPE to make enough unites available. IE. Services that used 2 units were split so there was enough units available for the Scotland services.

As mentioned by tbtc, "stock efficiencies" is a bit misleading. TPE were expected to run the services with no extra stock!

 

[30907]

Because the Birmingham - Scotland flow was tranferred to Virgin, with the Manchester - Scotland flow transferred to TPE when Arriva awarded the XC franchise to Arriva.

This wasn't a plan from any of the TOCs, but instead the DfT.

It also went with a simplification of the XC long-distance services to ensure the key medium distance routes were served hourly end to end - with winners and losers....

 

[Zoe]

Virgin needed the 221s in order to run an hourly service to Chester. I believe that as a result of this there was no longer sufficient stock available to run direct XC services from the South West via the WCML to Glasgow. This also left no 221s the Manchester to Scotland service. TPE had stock that could be made available so the service went to them.

 

[dk1]

It is well documented that Voyagers suffer overcrowding, but one good thing that came from their introduction was a regular direct Leeds to Scotland service.

 

[PHILIPE]

The XC trains that run to Glasgow are an extension of Edinburgh services vice EC to provide additional capacity on ECML This came much later and has no connection with the Birmingham to Glasgow (West Coast) Virgin franchise taking over the former XC.

 

[Zoe]

The XC trains that run to Glasgow are an extension of Edinburgh services vice EC to provide additional capacity on ECML This came much later and has no connection with the Birmingham to Glasgow (West Coast) Virgin franchise taking over the former XC.

Actually there were some Glasgow extensions of the hourly XC Plymouth to Edinburgh service (introduced in December 2008) before the May 2011 East Coast timetable change but it was quite limited. It may have even only been one each day although I can't find a timetable right now.

 

[dk1]

The XC trains that run to Glasgow are an extension of Edinburgh services vice EC to provide additional capacity on ECML This came much later and has no connection with the Birmingham to Glasgow (West Coast) Virgin franchise taking over the former XC.

There where quotes that many of the EC services where carrying fewer than 80 passengers between the two Scottish cities following improvements made by Virgin to the Euston route, making the diagramming of these sets rather inefficient considering crowding elswhere on the ECML.

 

[fgwrich]

It does seem a little impractical. Consider a journey from Glasgow to Birmingham. Virgin takes four hours, CrossCountry takes five because it goes via Edinburgh and Newcastle! It would be very interesting to see CrossCountry services go via the West Coast, although I imagine there's a lack of paths available!

I'm sure that the decision to drop the Crewe - Glasgow section from the XC Franchise was a combination of the DfT and Virgin getting the monopoly it wanted - Leaving Virgin as the main dominant operator from Carlisle up towards Glasgow, without the chance of an XC Orcats raid up to Glasgow, and the TPE Services are of course the leftover of both the cutting of the XC services and the modifying of the TPE Network.

 

[dk1]

I suppose it does give Virgin the option to use Pendolinos aswell on the busy Brum-Scot route an option not so easy with through workings. Good to see that selected EBW are combined giving extra through opportunities where possible.

To me the eVoyager was a superb idea just such a pity the now known full cost of conversion/build now seems unrealistic.

 

[charlee]

So it's a forced change rather then by choice I see. Explains as much. The DfT do make some odd decisions sometimes.

 

[calc7]

So it's a forced change rather then by choice I see. Explains as much. The DfT do make some odd decisions sometimes.

The Plymouth - Edinburgh train makes a good connection with the Northbound Glasgow via Preston service at Birmingham (departs xx20); likewise in the other direction (Scotland service arrives ~xx50 and the Plymouth leaves at xx12)

 

[PHILIPE]

I suppose it does give Virgin the option to use Pendolinos aswell on the busy Brum-Scot route an option not so easy with through workings. Good to see that selected EBW are combined giving extra through opportunities where possible.

To me the eVoyager was a superb idea just such a pity the now known full cost of conversion/build now seems unrealistic.

There are several of them diagrammed for Pendolinos now but I'm not sure off hand which ones. The info is possibly on the Frequently Requested Diagrams thread.

 

[p123]

Actually there were some Glasgow extensions of the hourly XC Plymouth to Edinburgh service (introduced in December 2008) before the May 2011 East Coast timetable change but it was quite limited. It may have even only been one each day although I can't find a timetable right now.

I don't have a timetable to prove it, but there were 3 per day. They were at (approx) 6am, 9am and 9pm.

I know, as I used to use them regularly. They were a bargain! £1.30 single if you had a railcard. Outstanding.

Sadly, the fare went up when the frequency did.

---
Edit: Sorry to be clear, none of these went to Plymouth, I think the first two were Penzance, and the 9pm was just to Edinburgh. I don't know when they all came back, but I think one was also around 9pm going Edinburgh to Glasgow.

 

[Zoe]

Sorry to be clear, none of these went to Plymouth, I think the first two were Penzance

If they went to Penzance then they would have gone to Plymouth as Penzance is a limited extension of the Plymouth service.

 

[bb21]

If they went to Penzance then they would have gone to Plymouth as Penzance is a limited extension of the Plymouth service.

I think he meant terminated at Penzance. Of course otherwise it wouldn't make sense as you can't reach there without passing Plymouth.

 

[zac embleton]

i know that cross country still operate these services via the ECML but when did they cease to operate them via the WCML many thanks i believe they ran from Glasgow Central to Paignton

 

[yorkie]

i know that cross country still operate these services via the ECML but when did they cease to operate them via the WCML many thanks i believe they ran from Glasgow Central to Paignton

I have merged this into the existing thread, but here is the answer:

Because the Birmingham - Scotland flow was transferred to Virgin, with the Manchester - Scotland flow transferred to TPE when Arriva awarded the XC franchise to Arriva.

This happened in 2008 I believe, with further Glasgow extensions to Edinburgh services in 2011 for the new InterCity East Coast timetable.

This thread may also be of interest: Cross Country history

 

[zac embleton]

thankyou very much for your assistance

 

[Ianno87]

Virgin XC ran the franchise up to November 2007 (when Arriva took over)

For c. 4 weeks, until the December 2007 timetable change, XC services still ran Scotland-Birmingham-SW (VTWC temporarily operated Manchester-Scotland in this period)

From Dec 2007, XC Scotland via WCML services were cut back to be Birmingham-Scotland only and transferred to VTWC. The XC SW-Birmingham paths were diverted elsewhere north of Birmingham (most to/from Manchester IIRC, with some South Coast/Brighton/Gatwick/Bounrnemouth-Manchester services correspondingly cut back to New St only*). On the same date, TPE also took over Manchester-Scotland.

*This created, for one year, some odd workings to balance the stock, e.g.
-Brighton to Birmingham New Street (terminates, path having been taken north of Birmingham by a SW-WCML-Scotland service diverted to Manchester in its place)
-ECS back to Birmingham International
-Birmingham International to Manchester Piccadilly

 

[Bletchleyite]

The follow-on to that some years later, after massive overcrowding problems, was a bit of a rejig in joining the Birmingham to Scotland services to the Euston to Wolverhampton ones, having the effect of freeing up a unit by only having one VT service per hour between the two and having one rather than two layovers (though southbound they wait at Wolves for a while for a path). They also rejigged to run most of these services using double Voyagers or Pendolinos (though the quieter ones use single Voyagers), and to use single Voyagers on some of the quieter Euston to Brum services.

This was quite clever in that it didn't really annoy many people (there are loads of trains from Brum to Wolves not to mention a tram and half a million buses as well), allowed better use of capacity thus avoiding the serious overcrowding that was the case on Brum-Scotland services, allowed them to nick a bit of revenue off East Coast by running a direct two-hourly Euston to Edinburgh service, and allowed them to nick a bit of revenue off National Express by having direct Euston to Scotland hourly but slower than the "crack" Glasgow expresses, meaning the opportunity to price-differentiate by offering much lower Advance fares on those trains. Not to mention serving the ever-growing market for travel from Milton Keynes, who have the choice of the direct service or a connection using the Chester/Holyhead run about 25 minutes later; my observation is a reasonably even split between the two options.

All in all, it has been a very popular move and required no additional rolling stock at all unlike the other proposals for Birmingham-Scotland. Yes, the Voyagers run under the wires, but no more than they otherwise would have done, and the whole thing would work fine if you swapped them for some other kind of 125mph 5-car EMU just keeping enough for Chester/North Wales. (The added acceleration of an EMU would probably catch up any losses from lack of tilt).

 

[swt_passenger]

Here's the 2006 consultation pdf, which was intended to explain the reasoning: