When did the use of Mk2c BFKs and Mk1 diners end on XC services?

[USRailFan]

From photos from the early 90s, it seems that the Mk2c BFK-Mk1 RBR/RMB-5 mk2d-f TSO formation was pretty common on XC services at least until the summer of 1991, with the Mk1 BG-Mk2f RFO-5 Mk2d-f TSO formation holding out until perhaps 1993ish before giving way to the RFO-5 TSO-BSO formation that continued under Virgin and until the Voyagers arrived.
When did the use of BFKs end? I've read somewhere that Mk1s on Cross-Country services ended after the completion of ECML electrification and cascade of more HSTs to XC - which would mean autumn 1991. Did the use of Mk2c BFKs end at the same time? Or did they last slightly longer (until the BSOs arrived when the Night train seating cars were withdrawn around 1992ish)?

 

[Snow1964]

There were some cross country trains to Bournemouth / Poole which remained loco hauled into 1990s.
Some changed to displaced HSTs, but there were a few that carried on and generally gained mk2d and mk2e until the voyagers arrived

I used them a lot in mid 1980s when at University, and norm was then mk2b with a mk1 full brake.
There were summer weekend extras in the mid 1980s with mk1s as not enough mk2s at the time.

I think you are correct, about 1991-92 most of the non air conditioned stock seemed to leave cross country

 

[Helvellyn]

The last hold-out for Mark 1 catering vehicles for Derby Etches Park, where some loco-hauled sets remained with Mark 2E FOs and Mark 1 RMBs. The latter were then switched out for the 5 Mark 2D RMBTs. I think apart from those vehicles and some Mark 2D BSOs CrossCountry also ditched the majority of the Mark 2D TSOs by 1992/93, with sets formed with Mark 2E or Mark 2F TSOs. The recession in the early 1990s saw a lot of tightening up of diagrams, 'odd-ball' destinations dropped that saved sets (e.g. Blackpool, Shrewsbury on the West Coast) and some shortening of sets (e.g. CrossCountry going from 8 coach LHCS sets to 7 coach, or BG-RFB-6xTSO to RFB-5xTSO-BSO).

Mark 2C vehicles tended to be based at Manchester, apart from some Polmadie based 2C TSOs used mainly on the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Paignton Service. If I recall that was eleven coaches - TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO-RBR-TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO. The BFKs were 2D and the RBR Mark 1.

 

[dubscottie]

I travelled on a XC train (Paddington -Edinburgh IIRC) which had a BFK & Mk1 buffet in late 1992 or early 1993. It had a FO in the formation so the BFK was declassified. We were the only ones to spot the wee stickers in the windows!

The need to fit CDL is what killed them of I think.

 

[USRailFan]

The last hold-out for Mark 1 catering vehicles for Derby Etches Park, where some loco-hauled sets remained with Mark 2E FOs and Mark 1 RMBs.

How about the Mk2 rakes on the Great Eastern, did they have Mk3 buffets all the time? Or did they run without buffets in the BR era?

 

[dubscottie]

One Mk3 was allocated "on paper" to the GEML in 1990 but never got there.

They all had Mk1 buffets but they were gradually replaced by Mk2/3 buffets. The Mk1 were withdrawn in the late 90s I think.

The last Mk2 BFK in regular daily passenger service was with ScotRail. Withdrawn in 1994.

 

[USRailFan]

One Mk3 was allocated "on paper" to the GEML in 1990 but never got there.

They all had Mk1 buffets but they were gradually replaced by Mk2/3 buffets. The Mk1 were withdrawn in the late 90s I think.

How were the formations on GEML in the BR era post-electrification? 86-2 FO-RBR-5 TSO-DBSO or were they shorter?

The last Mk2 BFK in regular daily passenger service was with ScotRail. Withdrawn in 1994.

Inverness - Kyle?

 

[JonathanH]

How were the formations on GEML in the BR era post-electrification? 86-2 FO-RBR-5 TSO-DBSO or were they shorter?

6TSO where 3 were high density FO conversions. I had the following in 1992, admittedly a few years on from electrification.

9704-6815-6823-6804-5964-6036-5973-10223-3338-3251-86223

86246-3417-3388-10228-5695-5927-6053-6828-6809-6827-9713

A few Mk1 RMBs were I think the last Mk1s in regular service with an IC operator.

 

[USRailFan]

So going by the numbers, there seems to have been Mk3 diners on the GEML already in 1992?

 

[ge-gn]

So going by the numbers, there seems to have been Mk3 diners on the GEML already in 1992?

I’m minded to disagree, although I have no proof, but I believe the mk3 diners came under Anglia Railways circa 1996. There was one that was painted in Intercity livery so maybe it was slightly before.

The Mk1 diner was pretty primitive compared to even the a/c mk2s at 100mph, but not unenjoyable as I recall.

 

[JonathanH]

I’m minded to disagree, although I have no proof, but I believe the mk3 diners came under Anglia Railways circa 1996. There was one that was painted in Intercity livery so maybe it was slightly before.

I think it was a mix initially and then Anglia managed to source additional Mk3 buffets surplus to West Coast later.

 

[dubscottie]

How were the formations on GEML in the BR era post-electrification? 86-2 FO-RBR-5 TSO-DBSO or were they shorter?



Inverness - Kyle?

The GEML sets had Mk2d BFKs originally.

For example BFK-FO-FO-RBR/RMB-6xTSO

In preparation for push-pull working the BFK was replaced by a BSO which was itself replaced by a DBSO.

I think it was 1992 before the first Mk3 buffets arrived on the GE. 5 or 6 of them.

The ScotRail BFK were usually on the Inverness-Edinburgh/Glasgow turns but did venture to Kyle on occasion.

 

[USRailFan]

The ScotRail BFK were usually on the Inverness-Edinburgh/Glasgow turns but did venture to Kyle on occasion.

Hadn't these long since been "sprinterised" by 1994?

 

[JonathanH]

Hadn't these long since been "sprinterised" by 1994?

The summer of 1994 was the last one on which a number of locomotive hauled trains remained in operation in Scotland. Yes, the main service had long been converted to sprinters but locomotive hauled trains with early Mark 2s remained in operation to provide additional capacity. Not widespread by any means.

 

[hexagon789]

Hadn't these long since been "sprinterised" by 1994?

Fully Sprinterisation occurred briefly from about July 1990- the summer of '91, but loco-hauled workings soon returned first with a Fife Commuter set.

From Summer 1991 some loco-hauled services returned to the Kyle line and scratch sets operated on the Inverness-Aberdeen line to cover for units.

A renaissance occurred in Summer 1992 with loco-haulage returning to select Inverness & Aberdeen to Edinburgh and West Highland services. These all carried names as with many of the early Sprinter services.

These operations were mostly resumed in Summer 1993 and 1994 but 1994 was the last one with all previously loco-hauled services then being either 156 or 158.

It was intended to retain 30-40 coaches for specials and summer services but this wasn't carried through.

 

[theblackwatch]

The last hold-out for Mark 1 catering vehicles for Derby Etches Park, where some loco-hauled sets remained with Mark 2E FOs and Mark 1 RMBs. The latter were then switched out for the 5 Mark 2D RMBTs. I think apart from those vehicles and some Mark 2D BSOs CrossCountry also ditched the majority of the Mark 2D TSOs by 1992/93, with sets formed with Mark 2E or Mark 2F TSOs. The recession in the early 1990s saw a lot of tightening up of diagrams, 'odd-ball' destinations dropped that saved sets (e.g. Blackpool, Shrewsbury on the West Coast) and some shortening of sets (e.g. CrossCountry going from 8 coach LHCS sets to 7 coach, or BG-RFB-6xTSO to RFB-5xTSO-BSO).

Mark 2C vehicles tended to be based at Manchester, apart from some Polmadie based 2C TSOs used mainly on the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Paignton Service. If I recall that was eleven coaches - TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO-RBR-TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO. The BFKs were 2D and the RBR Mark 1.

A lot of Cross Country stock became surplus in summer 1991, when a load of HSTs were cascaded from the ECML (after the full Class 91/Mk.4 timetable was introduced in July that year). I can't remember any Mk.1 RMBs in use on Cross Country much later than that, although Anglia had three (1842/50/71 if I recall correctly).

 

[USRailFan]

Thanks for the info. Guess my initial suspicion was correct - from Summer 1991 all loco hauled XC rakes were BG-RFO-5-6 TSO. And then it got changed to RFO-5 TSO-BSO when the seated cars got eliminated from the sleepers and their BSOs became available (I think sleepers used BSOs but not BGs at the end?), which would've been 1993ish?

 

[theblackwatch]

Thanks for the info. Guess my initial suspicion was correct - from Summer 1991 all loco hauled XC rakes were BG-RFO-5-6 TSO. And then it got changed to RFO-5 TSO-BSO when the seated cars got eliminated from the sleepers and their BSOs became available (I think sleepers used BSOs but not BGs at the end?), which would've been 1993ish?

I can't remember Cross Country services having a BG in them as late as 1991 - more likely to have been a half brake.

 

[dubscottie]

The Edinburgh-Birmingham International trains had full brakes until late 1992.

The standard BSO-4/5 TSO-RFO sets did not really come until 1993 when privatisation was on the horizon. And the need for CDL.

The BSOs for XC came from the IC Holyhead trains going to HST, the ending of some other services and the introduction of DVTs.

About the same time it was a free for all in Edinburgh AC loco wise. It was late 1992 that things got boring! Same locos, same coaches etc.

 

[USRailFan]

I can't remember Cross Country services having a BG in them as late as 1991 - more likely to have been a half brake.

Sussex Scot, 10th of July 1991: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p333386290/h314309BF#h314309bf that's definately a BG behind the Class 47
Brighton - Manchester Sept 1991: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p333386290/h1B6D1C93#h1b6d1c93 Looks to have been one of the last holdouts of BFKs..
Liverpool - Dover Oct 1991: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p333386290/h2A5A9BD0#h2a5a9bd0 that's also definately a BG behind the Class 47
Sussex Scot in 1992: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p41115775/e3f5e4279#e3f5e4279 also a BG
Unidentified XC in 1993: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p41115775/e27af45e3 that also looks like a BG?

 

[USRailFan]

The BSOs for XC came from the IC Holyhead trains going to HST, the ending of some other services and the introduction of DVTs.

The changeover to BSOs as you say seem to have happened from 1993 - AFAIK the changeover to DVTs was long since completed by then (they were introduced in 1989-90 AFAIK)?

 

[theblackwatch]

Sussex Scot, 10th of July 1991: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p333386290/h314309BF#h314309bf that's definately a BG behind the Class 47
Brighton - Manchester Sept 1991: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p333386290/h1B6D1C93#h1b6d1c93 Looks to have been one of the last holdouts of BFKs..
Liverpool - Dover Oct 1991: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p333386290/h2A5A9BD0#h2a5a9bd0 that's also definately a BG behind the Class 47
Sussex Scot in 1992: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p41115775/e3f5e4279#e3f5e4279 also a BG
Unidentified XC in 1993: https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p41115775/e27af45e3 that also looks like a BG?

Looks like I've been proved wrong! I'll have to dig out my P5 books from that era which have pool codes in them.

 

[dubscottie]

The changeover to BSOs as you say seem to have happened from 1993 - AFAIK the changeover to DVTs was long since completed by then (they were introduced in 1989-90 AFAIK)?

Not in all WCML sets. For example the Clansman sets and a few non XC sets never got DVTs.

Some of these shorter pure WCML trains became part of XC anyway. For example Manchester -Birmingham which could never justify a full set+DVT.

The growth of cheap airlines and package holidays also caused the suspension of the multiple loco hauled trains to traditional resorts on the South coast and West of England.

As a result XC got BSOs and Anglia got rid of the majority of its Mk2d TSOs.

About the same time, the fixed set policy was expanded and as I said CDL mods were required.

 

[USRailFan]

So what happened to the TSO+BSOs from the Anglo-Scottish sleepers when the seated cars were removed from (most) of these in May 92? AFAIK they still ran all the sleepers as separate trains back then so we'd quickly look at about 12-15 BSOs and 20ish(?) TSOs freed up?

 

[dubscottie]

So what happened to the TSO+BSOs from the Anglo-Scottish sleepers when the seated cars were removed from (most) of these in May 92? AFAIK they still ran all the sleepers as separate trains back then so we'd quickly look at about 12-15 BSOs and 20ish(?) TSOs freed up?

I am sure the BSOs had long gone from the sleeper by then and it was BG instead.

A quick look at a platform 5 book shows all the Anglo-Scottish sleeper stock (both WC & XC) being allocated to Craigentinny. There is only sleepers, reception lounge cars, RFO and full brakes. No BSO or TSO.

I think most of previous seating coaches were Mk2d so would have been passed to the charter sector and/or stored in a MOD base. The sleeper standard opens were downgraded FO if IIRC.

When Pete Waterman bought the IC charter business (becoming Waterman Railways) I think he got 6x 47/7 and about 120 coaches the majority of which were surplus Mk2 dumped in MOD sidings.

Most of the Mk2 ended up in NZ.

 

[USRailFan]

I am sure the BSOs had long gone from the sleeper by then and it was BG instead.

A quick look at a platform 5 book shows all the Anglo-Scottish sleeper stock (both WC & XC) being allocated to Craigentinny. There is only sleepers, reception lounge cars, RFO and full brakes. No BSO or TSO.

What year was this Platform 5 book from?

 

[notabasher]

Fascinating thread. My active interest (as in being old enough to get out and about by myself) started around 1990, and the loco-hauled cross-country services were a pretty much the bulk of "real trains" left, North Wales Coast and the odd weekend service through Shrewsbury excepted.

I can recall the seven coach cross county formations being pretty standard by about 1991/2, but also some oddities such as the FK Mk2d's and Mk1 buffets.

A slightly different question, but when did the mark 2d SO's get withdrawn? These were interesting as they had the larger lavatories (hence 2 "missing" seats), and I don't think were every refurbished so had the an early mark-2 ambience with wooden panelling. I remember travelling in a rake of them (perhaps mixed with unrefurbished mark 2e's) out of Manchester Picadilly in 1992. I'm sure I saw a TV documentary/report early in Virgin XC days which had some of the still in service.

 

[hexagon789]

Fascinating thread. My active interest (as in being old enough to get out and about by myself) started around 1990, and the loco-hauled cross-country services were a pretty much the bulk of "real trains" left, North Wales Coast and the odd weekend service through Shrewsbury excepted.

I can recall the seven coach cross county formations being pretty standard by about 1991/2, but also some oddities such as the FK Mk2d's and Mk1 buffets.

A slightly different question, but when did the mark 2d SO's get withdrawn? These were interesting as they had the larger lavatories (hence 2 "missing" seats), and I don't think were every refurbished so had the an early mark-2 ambience with wooden panelling. I remember travelling in a rake of them (perhaps mixed with unrefurbished mark 2e's) out of Manchester Picadilly in 1992. I'm sure I saw a TV documentary/report early in Virgin XC days which had some of the still in service.

Virgin XC used Mk2e and 2f, Virgin West Coast 2f and Mk3a & b. I think FGW had some Mk2d used on its few loco-hauled rakes and possibly in the Night Riviera seated accommodation but I think they were Mk2d BSO, which gained disabled toilets and lost a gangway at the brake van end with the other vehicles in their fleet being mainly Mk2e.

I'll dig out the Harris Mk2 book for a look later

 

[Helvellyn]

A slightly different question, but when did the mark 2d SO's get withdrawn? These were interesting as they had the larger lavatories (hence 2 "missing" seats), and I don't think were every refurbished so had the an early mark-2 ambience with wooden panelling. I remember travelling in a rake of them (perhaps mixed with unrefurbished mark 2e's) out of Manchester Picadilly in 1992. I'm sure I saw a TV documentary/report early in Virgin XC days which had some of the still in service.

There were no Mark 2D SOs, unless you mean the 36 62xx series TSOs converted from Mark 2D FOs? I'm sure these had their wood vaneer side panels replaced with a light grey plastic panelling when converted from FOs, but retained the wood on the ends and around the substantial toilets. They also retained the original partitions splitting the coach up (by windows) in a 2-3-2 pattern. This meant quite generous seating pitch in the outer bays, with airline style in the middle allowing an extra row there to give 58 seats in total, so only four less than a standard Mark 2D TSO. They were also fitted with IC80 seats (as used on the APT), which were also used in the Mark 2F 68xx TSOs (convrted from FOs but which gained a high density layout with virtually all airline seats) and some Mark 2 TSOs refurbished by NSE for use on the Liverpool Street to King's Lynn route (which also lost their wood panelling).

The 62xx TSOs were initially split between Great Western and West Coast for loco-hauled services, but gradually were shifted for use as the seated accommodation on overnight services. After withdrawal of most seated accommodation on the West Coast sleepers a number passed to the Charter unit. I don't think any were used on CrossCountry services.

The only Mark 2 SOs were the 64xx series vehicles converted from Mark 2C and Mark 2F coaches, were only the additional headrest cushions were removed. But only the 2C ones had wood panelling and most were withdrawn by 1988, after largely being used by Provincial.

 

[Helvellyn]

A slightly different question, but when did the mark 2d SO's get withdrawn? These were interesting as they had the larger lavatories (hence 2 "missing" seats), and I don't think were every refurbished so had the an early mark-2 ambience with wooden panelling. I remember travelling in a rake of them (perhaps mixed with unrefurbished mark 2e's) out of Manchester Picadilly in 1992. I'm sure I saw a TV documentary/report early in Virgin XC days which had some of the still in service.

There were no Mark 2D SOs, unless you mean the 36 62xx series TSOs converted from Mark 2D FOs? I'm sure these had their wood vaneer side panels replaced with a light grey plastic panelling when converted from FOs, but retained the wood on the ends and around the substantial toilets. They also retained the original partitions splitting the coach up (by windows) in a 2-3-2 pattern. This meant quite generous seating pitch in the outer bays, with airline style in the middle allowing an extra row there to give 58 seats in total, so only four less than a standard Mark 2D TSO. They were also fitted with IC80 seats (as used on the APT), which were also used in the Mark 2F 68xx TSOs (convrted from FOs but which gained a high density layout with virtually all airline seats) and some Mark 2 TSOs refurbished by NSE for use on the Liverpool Street to King's Lynn route (which also lost their wood panelling).

The 62xx TSOs were initially split between Great Western and West Coast for loco-hauled services, but gradually were shifted for use as the seated accommodation on overnight services. After withdrawal of most seated accommodation on the West Coast sleepers a number passed to the Charter unit. I don't think any were used on CrossCountry services.

The only Mark 2 SOs were the 64xx series vehicles converted from Mark 2C and Mark 2F coaches, were only the additional headrest cushions were removed. But only the 2C ones had wood panelling and most were withdrawn by 1988, after largely being used by Provincial.