When does 'up' become 'down' and vice versa?

[rower40]

Is this a very recent change, or a local variation?

Only it’s not the case for Bristol Temple Meads for example (resignalled under TVSC Didcot in 2018, however the design dates from about four years earlier).

I guess the latter (local variation). But that's just a guess.
We'll find out for definite when somewhere big (say, Waterloo) gets resignalled next.

 

[D6975]

Not true at all. On our lines it's Up to London and the mile posts decrease in value, with MP0 being at Paddington

Except it isn't. There isn't a MP0 on the GWR in London. Paddington is at MP 5 chains. This is historical, due to the gentry in London objecting to a railway station being too close to their property. They weren't that successful, causing Paddington to be built only slightly west of the original planned site. Much of the rest of the line was already built with MPs from the original location installed.

 

[Dave W]

Except it isn't. There isn't a MP0 on the GWR in London. Paddington is at MP 5 chains. This is historical, due to the gentry in London objecting to a railway station being too close to their property. They weren't that successful, causing Paddington to be built only slightly west of the original planned site. Much of the rest of the line was already built with MPs from the original location installed.

That's interesting - thanks. So what's 5 chains... 110 yards? Would that have taken the buffers right up to the pavement on Praed Street?

 

[Dstock7080]

IIRC the Jubilee changes from NB/SB to WB/EB with the 1999 extension, i.e. it's NB/SB at Green Park, then switches to WB/EB at Westminster.

Indeed, the boundary point being the step-plate junction at Green Park

 

[swt_passenger]

This is one of the few lines where Up and Down have been switched over in recent history. It was originally a LNWR branch from Bletchley to Oxford and was Down from Euston via the former south to west curve at Bletchley. By swapping it over, there is no Up/Down transition at Oxford, the curve at Bicester or at Bletchley, from where it always has been Down towards Bedford. As it was out of use for a period, all staff would have had to start from scratch with route knowledge so could pick up that change at the same time. No previous signalling equipment was retained - if it had been them some drawings might have had to change and even things like route indicators. EWR trains are likely to be Down all the way from Oxford to Cambridge.

There must be a change of direction on the new curve at Bicester surely?

 

[The Planner]

There must be a change of direction on the new curve at Bicester surely?

There is, the curve is Up Bicester South West Chord towards London from Gavray Jn and v.v

 

[Efini92]

From Manchester Victoria it’s down towards Leeds. It may change over at Miles Platting towards Stalybridge on the Diggle route to the up (I don’t sign that way but the Calder Valley route towards Rochdale and Bradford is the down direction all the way.

It’s down to Leeds and Stalybridge.

the changeover point is east of Man Vicc, its actually slightly West of Stalybridge.

It’s at Victoria. If you look below the platforms about half way down you can see the 0 miles post.

According to the Quail/Trackmaps map (1990 and 2013 editions), Victoria to Stalybridge via Ashton is Down all the way. However, Piccadilly via Guide Bridge to Stalybridge Junction (immediately before Stalybridge station) is Up.

Guide bridge to Staly changed a few years ago. It’s now the down Huddersfield towards Stalybridge.

 

[Taunton]

Yes, the Midland HQ was in Derby, but the Midland was "up to London" (despite what Wikipaedia says/said). If you offered freight (or yourself) for London to the Midland office at Bristol they would have sent it (or you) Bristol-Derby-London, up all the way -- until 1923 when the Midland was absorbed into the LMS. So it was logical for Bristol - Birmingham - Derby to be "up".

Bit off topic, but the Midland route from Bristol to London, on which there were certainly through freight trains right until early BR days, was via Birmingham and Water Orton, thence Nuneaton and to just south of Leicester. Between the last two points was, somewhat surprisingly, LNWR, but the Midland had full running powers and used them extensively on this stretch, otherwise Birmingham to Leicester services would not have been possible. I don't know whether they were Up or Down on the two separate sections between those two points.

The concept of Up and Down predates the railway, the expression was used by stagecoaches going to and from London. The novel "Tom Brown's Schooldays", written in the 1820s about the school at Rugby, has extensive descriptions of travelling to/from London by stagecoach and uses these terms. It is apparent that the interest of schoolboys in the minutiae of transport predates railway enthusiasm, and indeed the railway itself.

 

[D6975]

That's interesting - thanks. So what's 5 chains... 110 yards? Would that have taken the buffers right up to the pavement on Praed Street?

Something like that, it really was an epic fail of a victory, moving PAD just 110 yards.

ps Crossrail might be giving PAD LL a 0 MP, I can't get the sectional appendix to download at the moment so I'm not sure how the tunnels are being measured.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Something like that, it really was an epic fail of a victory, moving PAD just 110 yards.

ps Crossrail might be giving PAD LL a 0 MP, I can't get the sectional appendix to download at the moment so I'm not sure how the tunnels are being measured.

I'll have a look. Don't sign Paddington so just assumed it was MP0!
Thanks for the info

 

[swt_passenger]

Something like that, it really was an epic fail of a victory, moving PAD just 110 yards.

ps Crossrail might be giving PAD LL a 0 MP, I can't get the sectional appendix to download at the moment so I'm not sure how the tunnels are being measured.

Crossrail 0 kilometre point seems to be within the Westbourne Park turnbacks, but it is also 0m 27ch from another seemingly random zero point at the points for New Yard. (That’s from the public version Western SA.)

 

[Annetts key]

 

[Ken H]

View attachment 103055
View attachment 103054

The 'Lawn' (concourse) at Paddington used to be sidings with loads of turnplates etc. The lawn only became a concourse in the 20th century. I have remembered that from Jacksons 'Londons Termini' but I dont have a copy to hand. But may explain the 5 chain difference. But Google found this set of track diagrams. Check the 1854 one. https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/0/09/Im19350830GWR-Map2.jpg
Link is to images of 3 track diagrams from paddington, dated 1845, 1854 and 1935

 

[edwin_m]

I guess the latter (local variation). But that's just a guess.
We'll find out for definite when somewhere big (say, Waterloo) gets resignalled next.

Kings Cross was just done, what is the signal numbering like there?

That's interesting - thanks. So what's 5 chains... 110 yards? Would that have taken the buffers right up to the pavement on Praed Street?

Maybe they just started from the eastern boundary of their land, thinking that whatever they actually built it wouldn't go beyond that (Metropolitan Railway excepted of course).

 

[Surreytraveller]

Closer to home, Fareham, Portchester, Cosham - SN & SWR.

And of course, Up Southern trains use the Down line as far as Cosham.
Similarly, Ashford to Eastbourne trains are Down as far as Hastings, then Up as far as Willingdon Junction, then Down again!

And of course, Up Southern trains use the Down line as far as Cosham.
Similarly, Ashford to Eastbourne trains are Down as far as Hastings, then Up as far as Willingdon Junction, then Down again!

And between Swanley and Shortlands, fast trains use the Slow lines, and slow trains use the Fast lines!

 

[Gloster]

As far as I can see without going through the Sectional Appendices, which take ages to download, the Brighton-Great Malvern trains had five (or six) changes of running direction. They were on the Down Line from Brighton to Cosham Junction, then Up to St Denys, Down to Wilton Junction, Up to Hawkeridge Junction, Down to Bristol, Up to Abbotswood Junction (Down from Gloucester Yard Junction to Horton Road Junction (when departing) if they went into Gloucester) and finally Down to Malvern.

 

[Surreytraveller]

As far as I can see without going through the Sectional Appendices, which take ages to download, the Brighton-Great Malvern trains had five (or six) changes of running direction. They were on the Down Line from Brighton to Cosham Junction, then Up to St Denys, Down to Wilton Junction, Up to Hawkeridge Junction, Down to Bristol, Up to Abbotswood Junction (Down from Gloucester Yard Junction to Horton Road Junction (when departing) if they went into Gloucester) and finally Down to Malvern.

As long as the drivers don't get dizzy

 

[Sunset route]

And of course, Up Southern trains use the Down line as far as Cosham.
Similarly, Ashford to Eastbourne trains are Down as far as Hastings, then Up as far as Willingdon Junction, then Down again!

Then to add to the complexity every train from London/Brighton to Hastings/Ore and vice versa was passing over Willingdon Junction twice, which was the reason that Hampden Park Signalbox was exempt from Train Register Booking.

 

[rower40]

Kings Cross was just done, what is the signal numbering like there?

Maybe they just started from the eastern boundary of their land, thinking that whatever they actually built it wouldn't go beyond that (Metropolitan Railway excepted of course).

Kings Cross (So says Opentraintimes) is 1000 + platform number! So platform zero has signal number 1000, stretching to 1010 in the new platform 10. Somewhere in the multiverse is signal number 1009.75.