david737
Member
At Harrogate the lines change direction, the Down Harrogate from Leeds becomes the Up York and the Down York becomes the Up Harrogate towards Leeds.
That's really weird. Because the logic was that you'd go up in numbers as you went away from the start of the line, as it was being built, and you'd go down in numbers back to the origin.Not true at all. On our lines it's Up to London and the mile posts decrease in value, with MP0 being at Paddington
Down in the direction of increasing mileage is the usual situation here. Relatively few lines are Up in the direction of increasing mileage. It makes sense - Up is usually to the principal station, and zero mileage is usually at the principal station.That's really weird. Because the logic was that you'd go up in numbers as you went away from the start of the line, as it was being built, and you'd go down in numbers back to the origin.
It was the British that implement this way of though. So much so that stations overseas where numbered from one and upwards as you built the line, and the number would even stuck as the name of the location if the station ended up being in the middle of absolutely nowhere.
You should be careful using signal numbering to work out which is the up line and which is the down. Different standards in different areas have been used over the years.On Merseyrail between Hooton and Capenhurst, there's a point where it changes from Up being towards Liverpool to Up being towards Chester. Generally signals have even numbers in the Up direction and odd numbers in the Down direction. But of course there are plenty of exceptions to that too.
Down in the direction of increasing mileage is the usual situation here. Relatively few lines are Up in the direction of increasing mileage. It makes sense - Up is usually to the principal station, and zero mileage is usually at the principal station.
Closer to home, Fareham, Portchester, Cosham - SN & SWR.As an additional level of confusion, at Exeter St David's there can be GW and South Western trains both heading for London, both up trains, but they start by facing in opposite directions.
It wasn’t when the manual box was there: when the points were Normal they were set for the Basingstoke line. Basingstoke was the Main, Romsey the Branch.Always fun to think about old stomping ground! Tunnel junction is also an odd one as you'd imagine that the normal flow of traffic (with the points) is the up and down main, where infact its the up main and the down romsey that hold the normal! the other two are reverse! (Although its both outside lines so there is some method to the madness. (But I digress!)
ah, very nice to know! do you know of any reason why that was changed?It wasn’t when the manual box was there: when the points were Normal they were set for the Basingstoke line. Basingstoke was the Main, Romsey the Branch.
On the Laverstock Loop the mileage counts up from London via Andover until it joins the Romsey line, when it starts counting back down to London via Eastleigh.
The Loop was only reopened in 1981 and that was probably how it had been set out when the line opened in 1857. Anyway, Main to Branch is more logical than v.v.ah, very nice to know! do you know of any reason why that was changed?
Travelling from Kings Cross to Euston (or Euston Square), you have the choice of using the "northbound" Northern Line, or the "southbound" Victoria Line, or the "westbound" Metropolitan Line. They all run more-or-less parallel to each other, in a roughly south-westerly direction.I don't think there Central Line would have any changeovers, other than where the Hainault loop meets itself? LU generally uses E/B and W/B (or N/B and S/B) consistently over the full length of a line, even where the local geography makes it seem illogical. The only exception, IIRC, is the original Circle Line, which is Outer Rail and Inner Rail, with the lines feeding into and out of it changing convention at the junction in each case.
Thanks! Is that a recent thing, or has it always been so?Circle Line is eastbound/westbound on the relevant sections.
Metropolitan changes at Baker Street from north/south to east/west.
Lines controlled by Network Rail signalling are Up and Down in those sections
The Midland (once it settled for zero at St Pancras) had a brilliantly consistent approach to that - if the branch connection faced towards London, the mileage continued upwards from the main line mileage at the junction, otherwise it started at zero.Also note that at some junctions, the branch line mileage may or may not start at zero. If it does not start at zero at the junction, the branch will take it’s mileage from the main line and continue counting with an increased value as you move further along the branch.
See #10,402, 10,409 and 10,417 in the Railway General Knowledge thread in Quizzes.There are/were, if I remember correctly, five places where the increasing mileage from London met itself head-on. One for a trivia tag?
the changeover point is east of Man Vicc, its actually slightly West of Stalybridge.One place where up becomes down is Manchester Victoria - from there Liverpool and Leeds are both down.
Any double track triangular junction must include at least one up-down transition.
According to the Quail/Trackmaps map (1990 and 2013 editions), Victoria to Stalybridge via Ashton is Down all the way. However, Piccadilly via Guide Bridge to Stalybridge Junction (immediately before Stalybridge station) is Up.the changeover point is east of Man Vicc, its actually slightly West of Stalybridge.
From Manchester Victoria it’s down towards Leeds. It may change over at Miles Platting towards Stalybridge on the Diggle route to the up (I don’t sign that way but the Calder Valley route towards Rochdale and Bradford is the down direction all the way.the changeover point is east of Man Vicc, its actually slightly West of Stalybridge.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Victoria to Miles Platting and Miles Platting to Stalybridge are both down.It may change over at Miles Platting towards Stalybridge on the Diggle route to the up
Absolutely. What utter tosh to suggest it's not worth the effort using. Obviously an enthusiasts opinion. I'd like to hear the responses of track workers who take protection from a signaller, that the term up/dn should not be worth the effort.Up is towards Cleethorpes for just about the entirety of that route, except between Dore and Swinton, and a short section through Doncaster.
If you need to unambiguously identify a line or direction, then it's very much worth the effort using...because it's the system that the railway uses?
In France, generally tracks are numbered, and the main convention is that a voie paire (even numbered line) is towards Paris and a voie impaire (odd numbered line) is away from Paris. There are some regional peculiarities (e.g. the Agen-Toulouse direction is sens impair). The odd/even convention applies to train numbers as well. I did see a 1931 mention of voie montante & descendante (ascending & descending) as alternatives but I think they are very old fashioned now. Track voie (fem) paire/impaire, direction sens (masc) pair/impair.Bi-directional lines, used in many countries but not much here, tend to use terms like "Line 1" and "Line 2" etc, as each line can be used for both Up and Down traffic.
However, despite being bi-di, HS1 is "Up CTRL" and "Down CTRL" from/to the interchange with Eurotunnel.
The Channel Tunnel is Down towards France (North Tunnel), although all 6 sections (with two intermediate crossovers) are bi-di.
We'll have to see how bi-di HS2 is designated, also the fully-ETCS (and therefore bi-di) ECML.
You can also see "Line x" designations on bi-di routes in the fans of lines leading into major stations and termini - eg at Euston.
Increasingly, these are posted on signal gantries for the information of drivers.
There's an echo in that in the UK, in that (unless it's changed recently) the standards specify signal numbers should be even for signals controlling Up direction moves, and odd for Down. However some older signalling either pre-dates the standard or ignores it.In France, generally tracks are numbered, and the main convention is that a voie paire (even numbered line) is towards Paris and a voie impaire (odd numbered line) is away from Paris. There are some regional peculiarities (e.g. the Agen-Toulouse direction is sens impair). The odd/even convention applies to train numbers as well. I did see a 1931 mention of voie montante & descendante (ascending & descending) as alternatives but I think they are very old fashioned now. Track voie (fem) paire/impaire, direction sens (masc) pair/impair.
Also Chiltern services from Oxford to Marylebone run on the Down Bletchley as far as Gavray Junction.For a specific curiosity, Stourbridge Junction. The Chiltern services between Kidderminster and Marylebone are on heading towards London on the down road as far as Stourbridge, where route miles are measured towards Paddington via Worcester. There must be other examples of trains that go ‘down’ to London, but it’s fairly unusual.
This is one of the few lines where Up and Down have been switched over in recent history. It was originally a LNWR branch from Bletchley to Oxford and was Down from Euston via the former south to west curve at Bletchley. By swapping it over, there is no Up/Down transition at Oxford, the curve at Bicester or at Bletchley, from where it always has been Down towards Bedford. As it was out of use for a period, all staff would have had to start from scratch with route knowledge so could pick up that change at the same time. No previous signalling equipment was retained - if it had been them some drawings might have had to change and even things like route indicators. EWR trains are likely to be Down all the way from Oxford to Cambridge.Also Chiltern services from Oxford to Marylebone run on the Down Bletchley as far as Gavray Junction.
When the line between Oxford and Bicester was rebuilt the up and down directions were reversed. As built by the Buckinghamshire Railway in 1850 up was towards Bletchley and Euston where there was a direct west to south connection. The station at Oxford Rewley Road was a terminus.Also Chiltern services from Oxford to Marylebone run on the Down Bletchley as far as Gavray Junction.
Newer installations ignore this for platform starter signals - e.g. Glasgow Queen Street high level where the signal number is 80 + <platform number>. Also the Derby has platform signals are in numerical order.There's an echo in that in the UK, in that (unless it's changed recently) the standards specify signal numbers should be even for signals controlling Up direction moves, and odd for Down. However some older signalling either pre-dates the standard or ignores it.
IIRC the Jubilee changes from NB/SB to WB/EB with the 1999 extension, i.e. it's NB/SB at Green Park, then switches to WB/EB at Westminster.Circle Line is eastbound/westbound on the relevant sections.
Metropolitan changes at Baker Street from north/south to east/west.
Lines controlled by Network Rail signalling are Up and Down in those sections
Is this a very recent change, or a local variation?Newer installations ignore this for platform starter signals - e.g. Glasgow Queen Street high level where the signal number is 80 + <platform number>. Also the Derby has platform signals are in numerical order.