When HS2 is built and is running what will happen to existing WCML services?

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TSR :D

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... What will happen to express rail services between New St and Euston? Will local services between Coventry and Birmingham be increased?
 
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edwin_m

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As the fastest trains would run on HS2 instead, there would be more semi-fast trains so secondary stations such as Milton Keynes would get more stops but their fastest trains might be a bit slower. There would be more room for locals and freight too. But no details are decided yet.
 

shaun

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Virgin or whoever is running the WCML then will still want to compete with HS2, so i expect they'll probably run similar if not faster (135mph?) services than at present. I imagine there will be more discounted fares to entice people back to make up for the longer journey as well.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It's possible the route will be downgraded south of the HS2 junctions to 110mph to increase capacity (running a mix of 110/125/135 would reduce capacity).
There are expected to be more trains with more intermediate stops.
Probably no Scottish services, which will all go via HS2.
I don't think the operator via Rugby/MKC will be competing with HS2.

Edit: The WCML franchise will be skewed more towards local/regional services, not long distance.
More like Chiltern is at the moment, compared to Virgin.
Maybe the route will be unified under one "LM" franchise.
 
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Gareth Marston

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It's possible the route will be downgraded south of the HS2 junctions to 110mph to increase capacity (running a mix of 110/125/135 would reduce capacity).
There are expected to be more trains with more intermediate stops.
Probably no Scottish services, which will all go via HS2.
I don't think the operator via Rugby/MKC will be competing with HS2.

Edit: The WCML franchise will be skewed more towards local/regional services, not long distance.
More like Chiltern is at the moment, compared to Virgin.
Maybe the route will be unified under one "LM" franchise.

Hourly Shrewsbury to Euston assuming wires west of Oxley Jnc in CP6 and before we have the auto response of there no market it's about providing more capacity into Birmingham from Shropshire using otherwise redundant Pendolinos.
 

Class 170101

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There would still need to be Scottish services. Not everyone in Scotland wants to go to London.
 

Stats

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Network Rail has previously produced 2 documents with options for the potential use of released capacity on the existing network after each phase of HS2.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/high-speed-rail/

Following the opening of phase 1 the majority of Euston to Birmingham flow will travel via HS2. The objective of London to Birmingham services would be to provide a service from the two ends of the route to key intermediate stations. So I would expect more stations along the route to benefit from semi-fast services - probably something like Watford Junction, (any of Hemel Hempstead/Berkhamsted/Leighton Buzzard), Milton Keynes, (some via Northampton), Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International. I agree with LNW-GW that there will be one TOC covering services along this part of the WCML into Euston.

This is all several years away and what service pattern will actually operate will be open to consultation nearer the time.
 

irish_rail

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I think its highly unlikely the government would allow Virgin (or whoever is running ICWC) to compete with HS2, as in reality, most people if offered a 2 hour Manchester to Euston journey for say £30, would choose this over a HS2 1hr 30 minute journey costing say £60.

There will be no competetion service, just slow stopping trains, forcing those from Birmingham, Crewe, manchester, Liverpool etc onto HS2 services, in order to prevent the embarrassment of the project becoming a failure....:roll:
 

NSEFAN

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irish_rail said:
I think its highly unlikely the government would allow Virgin (or whoever is running ICWC) to compete with HS2, as in reality, most people if offered a 2 hour Manchester to Euston journey for say £30, would choose this over a HS2 1hr 30 minute journey costing say £60.

There will be no competetion service, just slow stopping trains, forcing those from Birmingham, Crewe, manchester, Liverpool etc onto HS2 services, in order to prevent the embarrassment of the project becoming a failure....
Isn't that the point of the project though? You put long-distance travellers on the fast trains and local travellers on the stoppers. It's just an extension of what already happens, effectively.
 

irish_rail

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Yes, but you are forcing long distance passengers to pay more, just to save a few minutes, and for the pleasure of travelling on a train with no view (all tunnels), in an allocated seat, and with all the charm of air travel....
 

Clip

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Yes, but you are forcing long distance passengers to pay more, just to save a few minutes, and for the pleasure of travelling on a train with no view (all tunnels), in an allocated seat, and with all the charm of air travel....


Cool so you have the ticket prices already then.

could you let us know them too then please as we will need to start making informed journey options now ready for travel in 20 years time.
 

irish_rail

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Well I think its a safe bet that services on HS2 will command a premium price compared to current equivelent "intercity" services.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is burying their heads in the sand or reading too much RAIL magazine....
 

Hadders

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Didn't British Rail increase prices when major electrification projects were completed to reflect the improved service?
 

NSEFAN

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irish_rail said:
Well I think its a safe bet that services on HS2 will command a premium price compared to current equivelent "intercity" services.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is burying their heads in the sand or reading too much RAIL magazine....

Train tickets are already at a premium because there is high demand for limited supply. If there's a step increase in supply then the price should crash, if anything. Even if prices are raised to reflect an improvement in journey times, there is now an additional set of running lines so overall capacity has increase immensely too.
 

irish_rail

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If the price of tickets crashes however will the government and privateers recoup their huge outlay to build HS2?
 

SpacePhoenix

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Signalling systems aside is there anything that would stop a Pendolino from running on HS2? LM could take over the current WCML with new build EMUs.
 

Bald Rick

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Signalling systems aside is there anything that would stop a Pendolino from running on HS2? LM could take over the current WCML with new build EMUs.

Nothing apart from the pantograph, not being able to stop at any of the high speed platforms, and not being fast enough to fit in the timetable.
 

The Planner

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LM is likely to cease to exist. You'll end up with a West Mids franchise with the West coast franchise containing local and long distance more along the lines of FGW.
 

Kite159

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I think its highly unlikely the government would allow Virgin (or whoever is running ICWC) to compete with HS2, as in reality, most people if offered a 2 hour Manchester to Euston journey for say £30, would choose this over a HS2 1hr 30 minute journey costing say £60.

There will be no competetion service, just slow stopping trains, forcing those from Birmingham, Crewe, manchester, Liverpool etc onto HS2 services, in order to prevent the embarrassment of the project becoming a failure....:roll:

A bit like Southeastern adding in additional stops to make the 'classic' service slower to make HS1 seem more faster than it is?
 
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Bevan Price

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Under present plans, HS2 terminates 2 miles south of Wigan, and then trains have to share over 200 miles of the WCML with other trains to reach Scotland. So, unless some future government (hopefully) ditches the franchise system, I suspect that there may be a single operator for all the "fast" services.

To create more paths for freight, I would expect "WCML" services to Manchester & Birmingham to be reduced slightly - they will still need to provide good services to towns & cities not on HS2 - notably Wolverhampton, Coventry, Stockport & Stoke On Trent. Some services may have additional calls at Watford Junction, Rugby or Milton Keynes.

Services currently operated by LM Class 350s will probably continue with no more than minor changes. Trying to lump these into a future "Virgin successor" would seem to have little benefit for passengers - indeed that might make things worse, as there could be a temptation to divert resources away from the "low prestige" services.
 

NSEFAN

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irish_rail said:
If the price of tickets crashes however will the government and privateers recoup their huge outlay to build HS2?
Well the government could spin it as a good thing, "You asked us to lower ticket prices, so we did!" :lol:

Some say that HS1 is a white elephant because it's not paying for itself as quickly as envisaged, and is not as well used as first hoped. On the other hand, this is arguably a good thing as it means there's plenty of spare capacity for the future. The whole point is that infrastructure like high speed rail should last for decades or longer, just as the current mainlines have served us since the Victorian era. If it was a roaring success from day one then that would actually be problematic!
 
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