When is a Grange not a Grange?

[neilmc]

The GWR had a policy of naming passenger locos after any substantial dwelling, hence Castles, Granges, Halls and Manors. Sometimes they had to go beyond GWR territory, e.g., preserved 6998 Burton Agnes Hall, named after a well-known stately home in East Yorkshire.

Locally to me is a village named Bampton Grange, near Shap. There isn't an actual grange there, so I was surprised to find that 6802 was named Bampton Grange! I wonder, is there an obscure building with that name somewhere down South West, or did the GWR just pick up on any name they found which seemed to fit the bill?

 

[Steamysandy]

Other than Grange's,there were a batch of Saints named after Characters of Sir Walter Scott which led to Bride of Lammermoor.
I live 12 miles east of Edinburgh and the Lammermuir hills lie about 10 miles south of here.
The nearest Great Western line was at Birkenheac which is about a couple of hundred miles away.
Burton Agnes Hall wasn't unique as I understand it!

 

[Western Sunset]

The GWR had a policy of naming passenger locos after any substantial dwelling, hence Castles, Granges, Halls and Manors. Sometimes they had to go beyond GWR territory, e.g., preserved 6998 Burton Agnes Hall, named after a well-known stately home in East Yorkshire.

Locally to me is a village named Bampton Grange, near Shap. There isn't an actual grange there, so I was surprised to find that 6802 was named Bampton Grange! I wonder, is there an obscure building with that name somewhere down South West, or did the GWR just pick up on any name they found which seemed to fit the bill?

Bampton Grange is at Bampton in Oxfordshire, near Brize Norton.

 

[Taunton]

The nearest Great Western line was at Birkenheac which is about a couple of hundred miles away.

The GWR also had North Star, which is a bit further still from Birkenhead …

I understand that quite a number of the stately home names belonged to good friends, investors, and others well connected with the GWR board. Whether they were on the line was sometimes by the by. 330 Hall names must have been a particular challenge.

 

[geoffk]

I think only the Halls strayed beyond GWR territory as there were so many, although Avondale Castle is actually in Scotland and 7010 may have been so named in error.

 

[30907]

Wasn't 7930 going to be That's Hall?

Over and out. From a former resident of St Peter's Hall.

 

[Steamysandy]

Wasn't 7930 going to be That's Hall?

Over and out. From a former resident of St Peter's Hall.

No I believe it was to be 7931
7930 was to be Henry Hall after a top ballroom dance band leader of the era heard a lot on the wireless ( radio!)

 

[geoffk]

Other than Grange's,there were a batch of Saints named after Characters of Sir Walter Scott which led to Bride of Lammermoor.
I live 12 miles east of Edinburgh and the Lammermuir hills lie about 10 miles south of here.
The nearest Great Western line was at Birkenheac which is about a couple of hundred miles away.
Burton Agnes Hall wasn't unique as I understand it!

Rydal Hall in the Lake District, Lotherton Hall near Tadcaster, Speke Hall, you know where that is. Interesting that one of the B17s (Sandringhams) shared a name with a GW Hall - Helmingham Hall, carried by 6947 and 61647.

 

[Calthrop]

Wasn't 7930 going to be That's Hall?

Over and out. From a former resident of St Peter's Hall.

No I believe it was to be 7931
7930 was to be Henry Hall after a top ballroom dance band leader of the era heard a lot on the wireless ( radio!)

I'm fond of the tale of the GWR -- getting short of inspiration as regards naming the last few of the class -- having thoughts about "Uncle Tom Cobley And..." . Associations here, at least, with the right area of Devon !

 

[geoffk]

At least we didn't have Barbara Castle, but we had Roy Castle on a 47! And was Saint Edmund Hall a Saint or a Hall?

 

[Ken H]

Is Grange over Sands a Grange? And should it be renamed Grange over Mud?

 

[pdeaves]

I'm fond of the tale of the GWR -- getting short of inspiration as regards naming the last few of the class -- having thoughts about "Uncle Tom Cobley And..." . Associations here, at least, with the right area of Devon !

At least they didn't have to resort to "Dining Hall"!

(edit as I'm feeling silly) ... or "Sand Castle".

 

[Taunton]

Who has heard that the Kings were originally to be named after Cathedrals, being buildings grander than Castles?

 

[Calthrop]

Why not, I wonder? Angry representations from the GWR's Nonconformist Welsh and Cornish customers? -- but maybe they wouldn't be big fans of English monarchs, either?

 

[Taunton]

Why not, I wonder? Angry representations from the GWR's Nonconformist Welsh and Cornish customers? -- but maybe they wouldn't be big fans of English monarchs, either?

Possibly - maybe the reason why 6008 was always (as far as I can see) kept up at Wolverhampton Stafford Road, to lessen the chances of it being booed if passing through Taunton ...

 

[DerekC]

Why not, I wonder? Angry representations from the GWR's Nonconformist Welsh and Cornish customers? -- but maybe they wouldn't be big fans of English monarchs, either?

If the GWR were worried about it they could have had a "King" named Gruffydd ap Llewellyn - the first and last king of all Wales!

 

[DerekC]

Possibly - maybe the reason why 6008 was always (as far as I can see) kept up at Wolverhampton Stafford Road, to lessen the chances of it being booed if passing through Taunton ...

All a bit of a fuss about nothing, as far as I can see. It seems the song was about Sir John Trelawney, imprisoned by Parliament in 1628 but only for three weeks and then acquitted, not about his grandson imprisoned by James II. And the men of Cornwall never marched to rescue either of them! The GWR were obviously well informed because apparently 6008 was initially allocated to Laira.

 

[Taunton]

It seems the song was about Sir John Trelawney, imprisoned by Parliament in 1628 but only for three weeks and then acquitted, not about his grandson imprisoned by James II.

Different event. Still remembered in the town (all the schoolkids are taken to the big room in what is now the Taunton town museum to see where it happened).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Assizes

 

[30907]

At least we didn't have Barbara Castle, but we had Roy Castle on a 47! And was Saint Edmund Hall a Saint or a Hall?

St Edmund Hall was a Hall - Edmund didn't feature among the random Saints chosen by the GWR. (Look it up, it is a very random collection, unless someone out there knows the rationale.)

 

[Taunton]

St Edmund Hall was a Hall - Edmund didn't feature among the random Saints chosen by the GWR. (Look it up, it is a very random collection, unless someone out there knows the rationale.)

The detail behind the Saints' names is given in Tuplin's book "Great Western Saints and Sinners"

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/Great-Western-Saints-Sinners-W.A-Tuplin/22779827314/bd

 

[DerekC]

Different event. Still remembered in the town (all the schoolkids are taken to the big room in what is now the Taunton town museum to see where it happened).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Assizes

Ok - as it happens I have been to the museum. On that basis 6008 would have to avoid Winchester, Salisbury, Dorchester and Wells as well, although I agree that everyone thinks of Taunton.

 

[randyrippley]

Ok - as it happens I have been to the museum. On that basis 6008 would have to avoid Winchester, Salisbury, Dorchester and Wells as well, although I agree that everyone thinks of Taunton.

But its important to Taunton in that the battle was less than 15 miles away and many of those executed were local. Those appearing at the other show trials weren't local to the towns they were tried at.

 

[DerekC]

But its important to Taunton in that the battle was less than 15 miles away and many of those executed were local. Those appearing at the other show trials weren't local to the towns they were tried at.

We are getting a bit off-topic, but never mind! The Monmouth rebellion was more than just the Battle of Sedgemoor. The Duke of Monmouth (an illegitimate son of Charles II) landed at Lyme Regis five weeks before the battle and got to Bridport, Axminster, Chard, Taunton, Shepton Mallett, Glastonbury, Keynsham, Trowbridge, Wells and Bridgwater - so the trials at Dorchester and Wells at least would certainly have included local people. Interesting that one of the things James II did in response was to prorogue Parliament because it opposed the draconian steps he took - and that was a contributory cause of the "Glorious Revolution" of 1688!

 

[Taunton]

Ok - as it happens I have been to the museum. On that basis 6008 would have to avoid Winchester, Salisbury, Dorchester and Wells as well, although I agree that everyone thinks of Taunton.

Axle weight of the King too great at all of those! None of them Double Red. Coincidentally, all four there had separate minor GWR stations compared to the "Other Railway" in the town.

I would add a slight relevance that the issues with 6008 King James II (for those who don't know its name; he was the monarch who appointed Judge Jeffreys) came to my attention as a youthful spotter when my Ian Allan book was shown to a friend of the family who happened to be the history master at Taunton School; I didn't attend there but it was close by and we knew several of the staff there. It also backs onto the main line about half a mile west of the station, north side. Someone showed him the page with the Kings, and it was him who first made me aware that they had been named in reverse chronological order of coming to the throne. He then made witty remarks about me not having underlined 6008, and said it should be "not allowed" to go through Taunton.