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When should you self-evacuate a train

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TurbostarFan

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The lasting impression I have from onboard safety posters is to stay put unless I can't. If I have to move, I should stay on the train.

And there's the existence of wooden ladders, glow sticks and window hammers, but they're in varying locations on different stock.

I reckon that's enough to be going on unless and until a calamity happens.

On some stock e.g. GA Class 170s there are no glow sticks and the hammers and wooden ladders are actually hidden from MOPs and is only available in the driving cabs, which are both locked for health and safety reasons. Hasn't health and safety gone mad?

I can see why on these stock passengers would be more likely to evacuate because of the lack of glow sticks available but the lack of wooden ladders creates a situation in which people are more likely to be injured jumping off the train and onto the ballast. The lack of public access to the hammers means that no evacuation can take place unless either 1) one or more of the doors is in working order or 2) the driver and/or guard has managed to open their door so that passengers can at least access the hammers if nothing else.
 
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Taunton

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but if I was on the down fast between MK and Euston it would have to be pretty catastrophic to get me off the train
Bear in mind that a passenger who jumped from a train after the 1984 Wembley collision, got track circuit clips from the back cab, and applied them to tracks the train was leaning across was "thanked by the Railway Officers for his prompt and valuable assistance" in the official report.

Page 4

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Wembley1984.pdf
 
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TheEdge

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On some stock e.g. GA Class 170s there are no glow sticks and the hammers and wooden ladders are actually hidden from MOPs and is only available in one of the driving cabs, which are both locked for health and safety reasons. Hasn't health and safety gone mad?

Well, thats not true, the emergency equipment is in the emergency equipment cabinet which can be opened by anyone at any time.

The lack of public access to the hammers means that no evacuation can take place unless either 1) one or more of the doors is in working order or 2) the driver and/or guard has managed to open their door so that passengers can at least access the hammers if nothing else.

Again, for the GA 170s all external doors can be opened using emergency egress handles on both the inside and outside. The idea that any incident would destroy the mechanism for all 8 (or 12) doors without leaving a single one open is negligible enough to be impossible. And the egress is purely mechanical so a loss of power is irrelevant. I'm not entirely sure why you are so obsessed with the hammers, they are not exactly specialist and any heavy object will go through the windows. Its worth noting, for the 170s anyway (and I'm sure true for much other modern stock) is that they shatter their outer windows as part of the energy absorption process so by the time you are trying to break any the outer pane is already gone.
 

TurbostarFan

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Well, thats not true, the emergency equipment is in the emergency equipment cabinet which can be opened by anyone at any time.



Again, for the GA 170s all external doors can be opened using emergency egress handles on both the inside and outside. The idea that any incident would destroy the mechanism for all 8 (or 12) doors without leaving a single one open is negligible enough to be impossible. And the egress is purely mechanical so a loss of power is irrelevant. I'm not entirely sure why you are so obsessed with the hammers, they are not exactly specialist and any heavy object will go through the windows. Its worth noting, for the 170s anyway (and I'm sure true for much other modern stock) is that they shatter their outer windows as part of the energy absorption process so by the time you are trying to break any the outer pane is already gone.

I didn't know that there is an emergency equipment cabinet on board the GA 170s, where can I find it if the worst does happen? The safety card doesn't mention it after all.

Because if it is really such a big deal for the driver and guard to have access to them why not the passengers? Unlikely doesn't mean impossible after all.

Fair point about any heavy object going through the windows though, I didn't know that the outer pane shattered as part of the energy absorption process. Do you mean if it is struck e.g. in the event of a collision?
 

Ken H

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Well, thats not true, the emergency equipment is in the emergency equipment cabinet which can be opened by anyone at any time.



Again, for the GA 170s all external doors can be opened using emergency egress handles on both the inside and outside. The idea that any incident would destroy the mechanism for all 8 (or 12) doors without leaving a single one open is negligible enough to be impossible. And the egress is purely mechanical so a loss of power is irrelevant. I'm not entirely sure why you are so obsessed with the hammers, they are not exactly specialist and any heavy object will go through the windows. Its worth noting, for the 170s anyway (and I'm sure true for much other modern stock) is that they shatter their outer windows as part of the energy absorption process so by the time you are trying to break any the outer pane is already gone.
is it still true you try and break the window by hitting it in a corner. if you hit it in the middle the glass just flexes and your 'hammer' just bounces off. Seem to remember thats true for domestic double glazing too.
 

LowLevel

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I didn't know that there is an emergency equipment cabinet on board the GA 170s, where can I find it if the worst does happen? The safety card doesn't mention it after all.

Because if it is really such a big deal for the driver and guard to have access to them why not the passengers? Unlikely doesn't mean impossible after all.

Fair point about any heavy object going through the windows though, I didn't know that the outer pane shattered as part of the energy absorption process. Do you mean if it is struck e.g. in the event of a collision?

The hammers were removed for 2 reasons.

One - imagine you're walking down a dark road and someone hits you with one. They're far more use to muggers than for actually breaking windows.

Two - regarding train windows, you're far more likely to be thrown through one and killed than to escape through one on a crashed train. The fire service are generally needed to assist and they carry tools to break the windows.

Three - as a result of point 2 modern windows are designed not to break unless with a specialist tool in which case the hammer is pointless because it will break before the window.

The chances of you requiring the contents of the emergency cupboard or being able to make use of them are both nearly nil so stop flapping and get on with enjoying your travel.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd venture the view that if a passenger wanted to do one thing that would make them most useful in a serious railway accident (or indeed any other kind of serious accident in any other setting) it would be to spend a day taking a basic First Aid course. No need for any of the technical stuff, really.
 

Socanxdis

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btw DO NOT pull passcom/egress in between stations. wait for train to arrive at a station. there is nothing to be achieved by pulling handles in between, no matter what.
 

headshot119

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Having seen another post by the OP MPotter in the General Discussion forum, I did some digging via a link they posted.

I would strongly urge people on this thread, not to fuel the fantasies and conspiracy theories of this individual, nor to reveal information which could put the person, or other members of the public in danger.
 

Bletchleyite

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btw DO NOT pull passcom/egress in between stations. wait for train to arrive at a station. there is nothing to be achieved by pulling handles in between, no matter what.

I'm sorry, but this is oversimplistic to the point of dangerous. It very much depends on what is wrong.

If the train is on fire, you suspect it is derailed, or something else is occurring that is a potential threat to life on board, pull the passcom straight away. Had people done this on the ICE involved in the Eschede disaster, everyone may well have survived, for instance. They didn't even pull it when a piece of wheel came through the floor.

Only in the case of medical emergencies or similar (i.e. an individual requiring assistance rather than a problem with the train or something like a terrorist attack on it) does delaying to the next station make sense, and with modern stock that might not even be true as it no longer automatically applies the brakes, and it might, at the driver's discretion, make more sense to stop at the next station rather than the next booked station which may be a fair way away.
 

Lockwood

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I do not understand, and never have, why the emergency services do not come under one single system of control from start to finish. Few major incidents only require one of them.
JESIP is meant to help with that. The problem is that even with a national policy per service, you would end up with a national police CAD, a national ambulance CAD, a F&RS CAD. These can interact, but you would still have 3(+) distinct CAD systems or one monster one that would be pretty slow with the amount of stuff running at it.
Which service would run the incident? Police, with their authority and ability to take charge of the situation? Fire with their technical skills of fire and chemical containment? For a coastal major incident, would HM Coastguard be best placed to take the lead?
There are such a range of major incidents that the joint command and control would need to be steered by a different agency based on the incident (and this might even change - a major civil disturbance could be police led, and then after everyone has been dealt with from that point of view, the resultant fires in the area would make more sense to be guided by F&RS)
If there were frequent major incidents, then having multi-skilled JESIP staff would make sense, but we're not in the situation where this is appropriate (thankfully)

I'd venture the view that if a passenger wanted to do one thing that would make them most useful in a serious railway accident (or indeed any other kind of serious accident in any other setting) it would be to spend a day taking a basic First Aid course.
^ This. So much this. So much can be achieved with just a pair of hands - opening an airway, controlling bleeding, positioning someone to aid breathing. No kit needed, no huge skillbase needed. If we could have more people trained in basic first aid in the street there would be so many benefits, ranging from the earlier access and CPR to the more subtle ones like emergency aid being given to people who can then go to MIU and avoid clogging A&E when it is not needed.
 

Belperpete

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The original posting raises a number of questions:

How do you know the driver is incapacitated? Just because he has not communicated with you, does not mean he is incapacitated. As per a recent incident, he may be on the phone dealing with the issue. Likewise the guard (if there is one) may be protecting the train. Exiting the train may well make the time to rescue you or get you moving again considerably longer.

How do you know you are in imminent danger? If there is a fire, or smoke, then OK. But someone raised the issue of where a train is derailed across the other track. In such a case, by the time you have recovered your wits, have worked out how to release the doors, and have got out and to a position of safety well away from the train, it will likely be too late. If you haven't been hit by another train within that time, it is highly unlikely that you will be, as the signaller will have become aware that something is wrong and protected you.

Have you ever tried exiting a train from a passenger door when not at a platform? The cab doors have steps to help the crew get out, but even so in places where trains are not intended to stop it can be awkward. Passenger doors don't have steps, it is a long way down, and you are likely to be getting out onto a slopping ballast shoulder. You could very well end up with a sprained ankle if you land awkwardly. Even worse, if you realise that you have made a mistake, it is going to be even harder to get back on.

What about everybody else? If you try and open the external doors, someone else is bound to ask what on earth you think you are doing. At worst, you could start a panic. At best, by being "the person who knows what they are doing" you will probably by default find yourself in charge of evacuating a potentially large group of people, many of whom will be less agile than you, perhaps injured if the train has derailed, and some of whom will insist on bringing all their luggage with them.

What are you going to do after you have evacuated? It seems pointless to leave the train just to stand next to it! Even if there is a trackside access point nearby, it will be locked. You will inevitably end up treking off along the trackside. Leaving aside questions of which direction you are going to head-off in, this is where it starts getting risky if you are not experienced in walking trackside. There are no end of tripping hazards, such as loose troughing lids. At worst, you could find yourself in the path of a rescue train.

If you are an experienced railwayman used to working trackside, then you will know that it is safer to remain on the train. If you are not experienced in walking trackside, then it is almost certainly safer to remain on the train.

As others have said, and as per the official guidance, you are far, far better off moving to another coach if you think that you are in danger in the coach you are currently in. Exiting the train should only be the very last resort. In almost all situations, you are far better off staying on the train.
 

TurbostarFan

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The original posting raises a number of questions:

How do you know the driver is incapacitated? Just because he has not communicated with you, does not mean he is incapacitated. As per a recent incident, he may be on the phone dealing with the issue. Likewise the guard (if there is one) may be protecting the train. Exiting the train may well make the time to rescue you or get you moving again considerably longer.

How do you know you are in imminent danger? If there is a fire, or smoke, then OK. But someone raised the issue of where a train is derailed across the other track. In such a case, by the time you have recovered your wits, have worked out how to release the doors, and have got out and to a position of safety well away from the train, it will likely be too late. If you haven't been hit by another train within that time, it is highly unlikely that you will be, as the signaller will have become aware that something is wrong and protected you.

Have you ever tried exiting a train from a passenger door when not at a platform? The cab doors have steps to help the crew get out, but even so in places where trains are not intended to stop it can be awkward. Passenger doors don't have steps, it is a long way down, and you are likely to be getting out onto a slopping ballast shoulder. You could very well end up with a sprained ankle if you land awkwardly. Even worse, if you realise that you have made a mistake, it is going to be even harder to get back on.

What about everybody else? If you try and open the external doors, someone else is bound to ask what on earth you think you are doing. At worst, you could start a panic. At best, by being "the person who knows what they are doing" you will probably by default find yourself in charge of evacuating a potentially large group of people, many of whom will be less agile than you, perhaps injured if the train has derailed, and some of whom will insist on bringing all their luggage with them.

What are you going to do after you have evacuated? It seems pointless to leave the train just to stand next to it! Even if there is a trackside access point nearby, it will be locked. You will inevitably end up treking off along the trackside. Leaving aside questions of which direction you are going to head-off in, this is where it starts getting risky if you are not experienced in walking trackside. There are no end of tripping hazards, such as loose troughing lids. At worst, you could find yourself in the path of a rescue train.

If you are an experienced railwayman used to working trackside, then you will know that it is safer to remain on the train. If you are not experienced in walking trackside, then it is almost certainly safer to remain on the train.

As others have said, and as per the official guidance, you are far, far better off moving to another coach if you think that you are in danger in the coach you are currently in. Exiting the train should only be the very last resort. In almost all situations, you are far better off staying on the train.

As for whether I'm in imminent danger, this is a difficult call to make. It all depends on the scenario and there are a number of examples where this may be the case.

I have a limited amount of training on dealing with evacuation of the train on a heritage railway but know full well that the mainline is a different entity, if I knew what I was doing on there I would not bother asking. To answer your question about exiting a train from a passenger door when not at a platform, yes I have done that a few times within the scope of that. Once was with a ladder and another time without one. I have next to no experience walking trackside so may not have been aware of all these risks.

After evacuating I would first move away from tracks and to a position of safety if necessary. If there were no adjacent tracks I would probably stand next to the train in order to avoid leading people onto running lines, trip hazards, live electrical equipment or the third rail. If this wasn't safe then I would continue lineside to a position of safety, being sure to stop short of any level crossings and await assistance there.

But here is a situation that may not have crossed your mind. What if the train is at capacity / overcrowded meaning that evacuation into another coach is not an option or there is no other coach available? I have been on a number of single carriage trains on branch lines believe it or not!
 
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Belperpete

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As for whether I'm in imminent danger, this is a difficult call to make. It all depends on the scenario and there are a number of examples where this may be the case.

I have a limited amount of training on dealing with evacuation of the train on a heritage railway but know full well that the mainline is a different entity, if I knew what I was doing on there I would not bother asking. To answer your question about exiting a train from a passenger door when not at a platform, yes I have done that a few times within the scope of that. Once was with a ladder and another time without one. I have next to no experience walking trackside so may not have been aware of all these risks.

After evacuating I would first move away from tracks and to a position of safety if necessary. If there were no adjacent tracks I would probably stand next to the train in order to avoid leading people onto running lines, trip hazards, live electrical equipment or the third rail. If this wasn't safe then I would continue lineside to a position of safety, being sure to stop short of any level crossings and await assistance there.

But here is a situation that may not have crossed your mind. What if the train is at capacity / overcrowded meaning that evacuation into another coach is not an option or there is no other coach available? I have been on a number of single carriage trains on branch lines believe it or not!
If you really do have to leave the coach that you are in because you are in danger if you stay in it, then on a single-coach train then of course you will have to exit the train. But the point remains that self-evacuating a train should only be the very last resort if you are obviously in imminent danger. It is far safer to be evacuated properly, by staff, with the proper safeguards and equipment, than to be doing it yourself.
 

Intermodal

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@MPotter I think that you should stop talking as if there are numerous scenarios where it may be the best option for you to start an evacuation yourself. You come off like you have an absolute distrust in the safety of the railway in which case there is nothing anyone can say to reassure you.

Procedures are in place and they will be activated if needed, and you can follow simple instructions. You are not putting your life into your own hands using the railway. If you feel unsafe, don't use it. If you must know absolutely every eventuality, then I would question your motives for knowing them - especially considering your background.
 

TurbostarFan

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@MPotter I think that you should stop talking as if there are numerous scenarios where it may be the best option for you to start an evacuation yourself. You come off like you have an absolute distrust in the safety of the railway in which case there is nothing anyone can say to reassure you.

Procedures are in place and they will be activated if needed, and you can follow simple instructions. You are not putting your life into your own hands using the railway. If you feel unsafe, don't use it. If you must know absolutely every eventuality, then I would question your motives for knowing them - especially considering your background.

My background aside, you raise an interesting question. If the railway has nothing to hide then what does it have to fear in this kind of information being published? After all there is some information provided on the safety cards on each train. If they didn't want us to know this kind of thing then why put it there in the first place?
 

Typhoon

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What about everybody else? If you try and open the external doors, someone else is bound to ask what on earth you think you are doing. At worst, you could start a panic. At best, by being "the person who knows what they are doing" you will probably by default find yourself in charge of evacuating a potentially large group of people, many of whom will be less agile than you, perhaps injured if the train has derailed, and some of whom will insist on bringing all their luggage with them.
Absolutely.
Someone may think you can identify the variety of lineside equipment (eg 25kV feeder cables) but can everyone else? Certainly I can't. The reason I can identify the third rail is that a boy from the next street was electrocuted when I was in primary school and it was drummed into us in much the same way as the 8 times table.
Even if everyone in that carriage knows that the lead evacuator knows little more than they do, those in adjacent carriages may not and think there has been an order to get out. I wouldn't be willing to take that responsibility. There is plenty of good advice in this thread - 'stay put', 'contact the authorities and listen to their advice' and 'try to move to a safer part of the train if in danger'; 'get out' is not included (unless loss of life is inevitable). Grenfell should not determine our responses to all emergencies.
 

TurbostarFan

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Absolutely.
Someone may think you can identify the variety of lineside equipment (eg 25kV feeder cables) but can everyone else? Certainly I can't. The reason I can identify the third rail is that a boy from the next street was electrocuted when I was in primary school and it was drummed into us in much the same way as the 8 times table.
Even if everyone in that carriage knows that the lead evacuator knows little more than they do, those in adjacent carriages may not and think there has been an order to get out. I wouldn't be willing to take that responsibility. There is plenty of good advice in this thread - 'stay put', 'contact the authorities and listen to their advice' and 'try to move to a safer part of the train if in danger'; 'get out' is not included (unless loss of life is inevitable). Grenfell should not determine our responses to all emergencies.
Even better: What I would do is always treat every rail as live until proven otherwise and avoid contact with them unless absolutely necessary. This applies whether the line is electrified or not. And I would agree that it is a bad idea to evacuate the train unless you have no other choice.
 

Intermodal

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My background aside, you raise an interesting question. If the railway has nothing to hide then what does it have to fear in this kind of information being published? After all there is some information provided on the safety cards on each train. If they didn't want us to know this kind of thing then why put it there in the first place?
There is no fear in having the information published, in fact, every relevant piece of information has been provided in this thread in a good level of detail by several members of railway staff.

The question I had is why you are so bothered about it, abnormally so.
 

TurbostarFan

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There is no fear in having the information published, in fact, every relevant piece of information has been provided in this thread in a good level of detail by several members of railway staff.

The question I had is why you are so bothered about it, abnormally so.

I see, thank you for clarifying what you had meant. To answer your question, my background aside I am quite interested in emergency procedures, trains and the railway. This is a scenario in which these things come together.
 
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Baxenden Bank

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Have a listen to the Enquiry Podcast the BBC are doing. The level of incompetence and disorganisation was shocking - they simply were not prepared for a large fire of that nature, which is quite worrying. As ever, the individuals were doing their best, many risking their lives, but despite the (archaic[1]) system not because of it.

[1] I do not understand, and never have, why the emergency services do not come under one single system of control from start to finish. Few major incidents only require one of them.
The same reason we have three armed forces. Territory. Status. Plus some history, nostalgia and inertia thrown in.
 

Intermodal

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I see, thank you for clarifying what you had meant. To answer your question, my background aside I am quite interested in emergency procedures, trains and the railway. This is a scenario in which these things come together. .
I do not think we can put your background aside in this case. By your own admission, and by my own research, you have a number of criminal charges and convictions and have spent time in prison. You take pride in trying to shame the Police, immaturely enough by drawing "Hitler moustaches" on Police Chiefs and publishing these images online/on Facebook. You clearly have an unreasonable problem with authority and do not have insight into this.

As @headshot119 has said earlier in the thread I think it is very reasonable to question your motives for seeking all of this information. I certainly do not believe you are doing it in good faith and I would urge any other posters, as @headshot119 also did, to stop providing you with information. It seems likely to me that you will arm yourself with this information to make poor decisions that may put yourself or others into danger on the railway.
 

TurbostarFan

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I do not think we can put your background aside in this case. By your own admission, and by my own research, you have a number of criminal charges and convictions and have spent time in prison. You take pride in trying to shame the Police, immaturely enough by drawing "Hitler moustaches" on Police Chiefs and publishing these images online/on Facebook. You clearly have an unreasonable problem with authority and do not have insight into this.

As @headshot119 has said earlier in the thread I think it is very reasonable to question your motives for seeking all of this information. I certainly do not believe you are doing it in good faith and I would urge any other posters, as @headshot119 also did, to stop providing you with information. It seems likely to me that you will arm yourself with this information to make poor decisions that may put yourself or others into danger on the railway.

I've already stated my motives above, I can see your point but do not wish to go into my previous background on a public forum. It's off topic for a start, if you wish to continue then you are more than welcome to do so in a PM.
 

Intermodal

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I've already stated my motives above, I can see your point but do not wish to go into my previous background on a public forum. It's off topic for a start, if you wish to continue this then you are more than welcome to do so in a PM.
If you do not wish to go into your background on a public forum I would suggest you do not make posts about it as you have within the last hour - I have not posted any information here that you have not provided yourself. Anyway, I have said my bit!
 

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It's an interesting thread, which has brought out many relevant issues, and I think it has confirmed the standard advice that in almost every situation it is safest to stay on the train. Of course there are numerous "what if...?" possibilities, in some of which it may be safer to get off. As it is very unusual for there to be an accident or a breakdown, and there is only a very small proportion of such incidents in which getting off the train yourself might be safer than staying on it, I don't think it is necessary to prepare yourself by trying to identify what you would do if one of them happened.

Perhaps one reason why threads like this acquire a certain momentum is actually because the railway discourages self-detrainment (and the style of some of the contributions by railway staff). I've never heard anyone make an issue about how you would get off the upper deck of a bus if the staircase had become blocked by another vehicle driving into the offside. On a plane, how many people really familiarise themselves with the procedures for putting on a life jacket?

One day there will be a terrible event in which a crowded train is derailed on a viaduct at night in a howling gale which brings down the OHLE while the flooded river below is washing away the viaduct's foundations and a train coming the other way is powered by a class 67 at maximum speed, but whether or not an individual survives will be purely a matter of chance and nothing to do with working out in advance in precisely what circumstances they should or should not have tried to leave it.
 

TurbostarFan

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It's an interesting thread, which has brought out many relevant issues, and I think it has confirmed the standard advice that in almost every situation it is safest to stay on the train. Of course there are numerous "what if...?" possibilities, in some of which it may be safer to get off. As it is very unusual for there to be an accident or a breakdown, and there is only a very small proportion of such incidents in which getting off the train yourself might be safer than staying on it, I don't think it is necessary to prepare yourself by trying to identify what you would do if one of them happened.

Perhaps one reason why threads like this acquire a certain momentum is actually because the railway discourages self-detrainment (and the style of some of the contributions by railway staff). I've never heard anyone make an issue about how you would get off the upper deck of a bus if the staircase had become blocked by another vehicle driving into the offside. On a plane, how many people really familiarise themselves with the procedures for putting on a life jacket?

One day there will be a terrible event in which a crowded train is derailed on a viaduct at night in a howling gale which brings down the OHLE while the flooded river below is washing away the viaduct's foundations and a train coming the other way is powered by a class 67 at maximum speed, but whether or not an individual survives will be purely a matter of chance and nothing to do with working out in advance in precisely what circumstances they should or should not have tried to leave it.
Fair point.

On a plane I doubt that many people bother familiarise themselves with anything from the safety briefing, much less the bit about how to put on a lifejacket. There was an incident in which a plane was evacuated into the River Hudson, USA and the majority of passengers didn't bother with the lifejackets. Fortunately no one drowned but I digress!
 
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Interesting comments. I'm employed in the industry and have been for over twenty years. As a result, my ops knowledge is better than most, but not brilliant because right now I drive a desk. But - my knowledge is sufficient to know that should I find myself on a train affected by some sort of emergency, I'll probably be the last one to leave.
 

Journeyman

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Having seen another post by the OP MPotter in the General Discussion forum, I did some digging via a link they posted.

I would strongly urge people on this thread, not to fuel the fantasies and conspiracy theories of this individual, nor to reveal information which could put the person, or other members of the public in danger.

Absolutely agree. I think it might be wise to lock this thread, as although it's an interesting subject, there's nothing we can say that's going to be constructive to the original poster, who has mental health issues of a sufficiently serious nature to affect his perception of reality.
 

yorkie

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I don't think it is possible to accurately describe all the specific circumstances in which it would be a sensible and pragmatic course of action to exit from a train independently without prior instruction; it is going to be subjective and it may not be known until after the event if it was the correct course of action or not.

If anyone is unsure, or unable to work out what the safest option is, then the default position would be to not evacuate. Someone who is heavily rules-based in their thought process and not able to think as pragmatically as others is probably best leaving any such decision to others, in my opinion.

A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, and overconfidence in dealing with any situation can be dangerous.
 
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