When using an advance ticket, do you have to use it EXACTLY as specified....

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by 4SRKT, 31 Aug 2010.

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  1. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    I can't check atm, but I believe NCoC Condition 10 covers it. You may be given more restrictive rights than those printed in the NCoC provided you are made aware of them at the time of sale.
     
  2. billbogg

    billbogg Member

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    Yes I agree with you hairyhanded that the company is entitled to place any restrictions it likes . However as a private company it can have no say in restricting the normal rights of the passenger . It is up to the law to decide what those rights are
    PTF62 says : Ending a journey early falls within section 16 of the NCOC, which explains that it should be dealt with by an excess fare, which is calculated as the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used
    Anvil1984 says "20.Rail travel is undertaken under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage as amended by these terms. A copy can be obtained from staffed train stations or from www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/.and nowhere does it mention Excess Fares or Penalty Fares (Icant see anything either)
    That seems to cover it . So what the Eastleigh couple should have been charged was approx £30x2=£60 -the cost of the fare (which we dont know say £10)= £50 approx.
    That's it as far as I can see .Very different to he £114 they were charged.
     
  3. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    But what are the 'normal rights of the passenger' that you refer to?
    These two passenegers entered into a contract with Megatrain to travel between Waterloo and Southampton on a specific train. They broke that contract.
    As quoted by Anvil1984:
    From National Rail:
    An Anytime Single WAT-ESL costs £28.50. Twice that is £57. For two people that makes £114.
    Where's the issue?
     
  4. Anvil1984

    Anvil1984 Established Member

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    I have an issue that the penalty fare is only mentionned in the FAQ section of the website and not the T+Cs which we agreed to. I agree to an excess to the fare that should have been paid but NOT to the PF as its not clear in the T+Cs
     
  5. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    But how do you excess a megatrain passenger. They do not have a ticket just a reference number, which would mean nothing to anyone at Eastleigh.

    Peter
     
  6. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Have you read the thread, including expert opinions from guards and people who actually know about when it is, and isn't, appropriate to charge a PF?

    Then there's the moral question of whether it is justifiable, and I am sure the majority of people think there is an issue.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    No, it's like being told you have to watch the entire match and cannot leave early.

    Your analogy is the equivalent of someone wishing to switching seats while on an Advance ticket. In theory, not allowed. But in practice, you're usually fine to do that.

    I wonder what happens if someone says they feel ill. Do the TOCs get that person examined by a doctor to ensure that they really are ill before they let them get fresh air?
     
  7. Anvil1984

    Anvil1984 Established Member

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    There will be a reference number as you state, just take part of that or there will be a way around it, maybe using a UPFN pad if needs be, but the T+Cs arent watertight enough to allow PFs in my opinion, Yhe staff were probably right to PF by their briefing of the tickets but it needs reversed bu those upstairs
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Thats where effective revenue protection comes in, if they are ill then they would probably be let off the train I have faith in some of my colleagues to have compassion BUT if its evident there cars in the car park and its done on purpose......
     
  8. billbogg

    billbogg Member

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    EM2 : South-West trains does not have the right to levy fines on its conditions because it is a private company. It must adhere to the conditions which prevail under the law and then it might be entitled to do so. These conditions are laid down by the NCOC according to PTF & Anvil. The couple were entitled to be on a train or station between Waterloo and Southampton
     
  9. Anvil1984

    Anvil1984 Established Member

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    The passengers have a ticket to board a ticket at Waterloo and alight at Southampton, not to alight in between. The terms and conditions are clear enough at that, they were not entitled to leave the train at Eastleigh. What the discussion is about now is what the relevant charge should have been. As stated in the NRoC

    But I can't find anything that will allow a PF,
     
  10. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    No, they were not. They were entitled to travel on a SPECIFIC train and only between Waterloo and Southampton.
    If they had got on at Clapham Junction, they would have still been in breach of the T&Cs of their tickets, which they have to tick to say they have read before they can buy this ticket.
    The NCoC also state:
    1. Your contract
    If a Train Company's special conditions apply to the use of a ticket, the seller will make these clear to you
    2. Requirement to hold a ticket
    Before you travel you must hold a ticket...which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.
    25. Boarding, alighting or changing trains
    ...
    c) you alight from a train at the correct station...
     
    Last edited: 9 Sep 2010
  11. billbogg

    billbogg Member

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    I thought they had got on at Waterloo and they were on the specified train. Anvil : their rights are not discontinued on the journey between their departure and destination
     
  12. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    But you say that
    They were not. They were entitled to board that train at Waterloo and alight it at Southampton.
     
  13. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Which doesn't mean that SWT are entitled to issue them with PFs.

    And, as I said before, I wish it had gone to court. Previous customers who have said they will fight such cases in court, saw the TOC back down.
     
  14. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Why not? Eastleigh is in a PF area, isn't it? And Anvil points out that the website FAQs state that SWT will charge PFs.
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    If someone is on a Route Not London ticket and boards a train that is fast from Woking to Waterloo, so can't get off at Clapham Junction, should a PF be charged?

    If someone is on a Super Off Peak Return and boards a train from Waterloo at 1850, should a PF be charged?

    They're in PF areas, on PF trains and SWT charge PFs...
     
  16. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

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    I think EM2 wanted proof as to why SWT can't issue PF's in that situation, not your opinion.
     
  17. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    I think someone suggested it was because you can't excess a megatrain ticket? :?
     
  18. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    And the relevant clause in NCoC (clause 4) precludes the charging of a PF in those circumstances, as it specifically excludes clause 13 as an instance in which a PF can be charged.
    However, in this case, the website FAQ states that a PF will be charged. Which clause in NCoC backs that up, I can't say for certain but I would suspect it's probably clause 10 or 12.
     
    Last edited: 9 Sep 2010
  19. Anvil1984

    Anvil1984 Established Member

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    It does but not in the T+Cs, just in the FAQs, does that count as sufficient warning or notice, I personally don't think so
     
  20. billbogg

    billbogg Member

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    If you went to Tesco and they said sorry mate your trolleys in the wrong place thats a £20 fine you'd be pretty ****ed of.
     
  21. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Absolutely irrelevant.
     
  22. Anvil1984

    Anvil1984 Established Member

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    Whats that got to do with anything?
     
  23. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Yorkie - while I'm not overly comfortable about SWT charging a PF in this case, you could argue that they were entitled to.

    From the SWT site :-

    If you are travelling from a penalty fare station on a penalty fare train, and:

    a)

    You do not have a valid ticket and are approached by a revenue protection employee, who is an authorised penalty fare collector you may be liable to a penalty fare of £20 or twice the full single fare - whichever is the greater amount to the next station at which your train stops.


    Now, we know of the exceptions regarding being off route or travelling outside of validity in terms of time, but neither exception applies here. They were having a BoJ in effect which wasn't permitted by the T&Cs they'd agreed to, thereby invalidating the ticket.

    To me, the excess fare idea is a non-starter as it surely can't be possible to excess from a Megatrain ticket to the SOS.

    Was it morally right for them to be chinged 114 quid? Probably not. Were the SWT RPIs acting within their remit? I rather fear they were:(
     
  24. Anvil1984

    Anvil1984 Established Member

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    I feel reading everything that they were probably right when reading briefing notes (basically doing as they are told) and all but when you add the NRoCs and everything to the mix I don't think that SWT are right with that policy or Megatrain need to make it clearer in the T+Cs.
     
  25. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The fact is, experienced guards and fares experts alike cannot agree on whether or not a PF is allowed to be issued by the rules, in these circumstances, with some guards arguing for, and some against, and some experts arguing for, and some against. I think many of us agree that it isn't morally right though :)

    I don't think Advance tickets (let alone Megatrain tickets!!) were even considered when PF legislation was drafted. PFs were intended for short journeys within urban areas, e.g. the London area, not for a journey of around 80 miles (or around 180 in some cases!). The expansion of PF schemes is cause for concern.
     
  26. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Completely agree. I always understood that PFs were supposed to be a deterrent to hopping on for a 5 minute journey and hoping to get away with it. I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of charging a PF of 114 quid. Some people who receive an on the spot fine from Plod for an actual criminal offence (rather than a civil matter) only get chinged 50 quid. How can this be right?
     
  27. 87 027

    87 027 Member

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    As I recall this was explicit in the original SRA Guidance - designed for short journeys in urban areas where not all stations have barriers and on board staff couldn't be expected to fight their way through crowded trains to check every ticket.
     
  28. billbogg

    billbogg Member

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    If you went to Tesco and they said you cant put your trolley here it's in the terms and conditions and look here you ticked the box then you would instantly see it was wrong because Tesco is not the law and that is what people feel if SWT does the same thing.
     
  29. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    Completely irrelevant. When you buy the ticket you agree to the contract for travel between x and z. Not travel to y, travel to z. Why that is a problem for some is beyond me
     
  30. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    If I signed (or ticked) an agreement at Tesco when picking up a trolley (which belongs to Tesco), that if I do not return it to the trolley bay (on Tesco property) I will be fined £20, then so be it. I am quite willing to pay up, if I am caught out through my own actions, by T&Cs I agreed to.
    See my car insurance example earlier (post #232).
     
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