When using an advance ticket, do you have to use it EXACTLY as specified....

[mumrar]

Absolutely absurd, they've not set out to cheat the system or rob revenue from the railways.

It's things like this that put people off the railways and into their cars.

Try buying a bargain basement air fare to Switzerland and then flying to France with it! People always have plenty of time to bitch about everything wrong with their journey to the nth degree, but people get found out like this by just ticking the 'I have read and understood the terms & conditions' box if they purchase online, so they can issue the ticket. By ticking that box, they agree to be bound by them, full stop.

I shall not cry for their fine TBH.

 

[Clip]

Just of interest, how do you know that they didn't deliberately choose a very cheap Megatrain fare that wasn't available to where they wanted to go, with the intention of simply getting off at Eastleigh?

He Doesnt. And this is the problem with most people who will now scream a rip off and so forth

mumrar thats a good analogy

 

[Greenback]

I don't have a lot of sympathy with people who deliberately breach the conditions of tickets after confirming that they have read and understood them. I believe Megatrain restrictions are pretty hard to miss anyway!

Most cut price deals and offers have strings attached to them, which is why the deals can be offered cheaply in the first place. As with the thread last year about getting off at Diss or somewhere, if a customer wants to save money it's probably still cheaper to continue to the destination on the ticket and buy a new one for the couple of stops back. But people seem to want to have their cake and eat it!

I have no problem with splitting tickets, starting late or finsihing early, providing that the conditions of the ticket allow it. Megatrain and Advance fares clearly don't allow it, so, regardless of the morality it's reasonable to expect sanctions against those who are caught!

 

[Drsatan]

Complete and utter madness. The couple probably didn't know they couldn't travel short on a megatrain ticket, but they were penalised for making a simple mistake.

I'm quite surprised they encountered RPIs at Eastleigh station late at night; there are no barriers there and I haven't experienced a ticket check there.

 

[jopsuk]

Try buying a bargain basement air fare to Switzerland and then flying to France with it

Whilst I've got little sympathy for the couple in the case, that's a strawman arguement.

 

[mumrar]

Complete and utter madness. The couple probably didn't know they couldn't travel short on a megatrain ticket, but they were penalised for making a simple mistake.

If I hadn't read the small print of my car insurance policy, didn't realise I wasn't insured on other cars, and subsequently caused an accident driving someone elses car, I'd still get done for being uninsured. People need to grow up and take responsibilty for themselves, rather than expecting everyone else too!

 

[bnm]

Is travelling short on a restricted ticket a legitimate reason for issuing a Penalty Fare? Should they merely have been excessed?

Don't shoot me down, I ask because I'm not sure.

 

[Greenback]

The ticket they had was not valid to Eastleigh. Therefore they attempted toe xit the station without a valid ticket.

I expect they were surprised to get caught as well.

I don;t know how they can plead ignorance, as they agreed they had read and understood to the T&C when purchasing the ticket.

Fair enough, take a chance, but don't moan when you get caught!

 

[Clip]

Complete and utter madness. The couple probably didn't know they couldn't travel short on a megatrain ticket, but they were penalised for making a simple mistake.

I'm quite surprised they encountered RPIs at Eastleigh station late at night; there are no barriers there and I haven't experienced a ticket check there.

But they ticked the I agree to the T&Cs which you have to do to get your tickets so maybe they didnt bother reading them cos if they did then

Bookings are only valid on the journey(s) and places stated.

would have let them know its a point to point ticket

 

[Lampshade]

I don't have much sympathy for them, if you want a ticket from A to B, buy a ticket from A to B; lack of flexibility is the 'price' if you like, of these tickets.

 

[MikeWh]

Try buying a bargain basement air fare to Switzerland and then flying to France with it! People always have plenty of time to bitch about everything wrong with their journey to the nth degree, but people get found out like this by just ticking the 'I have read and understood the terms & conditions' box if they purchase online, so they can issue the ticket. By ticking that box, they agree to be bound by them, full stop.

I shall not cry for their fine TBH.

That is one of the silliest analogies I have seen. How many flights to Switzerland stop over in France first? The problem is that the trains do stop at other places as well. I don't know enough about megatrain fares to know whether purchase for a similar price to Eastleigh is possible, but we still come down to this simple fact:

1. Purchase advance ticket for £x.
2. Use it completely - no extra charge
3. Don't use it at all - no extra charge
4. Use 90% of it - extortionate additional charge multiple times £x.

Can someone please give me another example of anything where this sort of scale applies?

Going back to my personal experience of Waterloo to Upwey or Weymouth where either ticket was available for the same price; can anyone give me a good reason why the conditions of the ticket prevents alighting at Upwey if the destination is Weymouth?

 

[SWT_USER]

I have a point to point season ticket to Syon Lane which I use Monday to Friday for work. Some Saturdays I go to Brentford (one stop before Syon Lane). Is this against the rules?

 

[yorkie]

A couple from Southampton got a £114 for stopping "short" on an advance.
See another thread.

The story suggests they have paid up. In the GNER example a solicitor got an unpaid fare notice and said they were going to fight it. Once you've paid, you will find it very difficult to get any money back. However the comments on that link adds much credibility to my claim that the majority of people believe that the conditions are morally wrong.

Just of interest, how do you know that they didn't deliberately choose a very cheap Megatrain fare that wasn't available to where they wanted to go, with the intention of simply getting off at Eastleigh?

Because then they would have a ticket from a local station to Eastleigh for the barriers. Smart people who plan such things would not caught by barriers! These people probably just had a change of mind on the train when they got an invitation to see friends.

I don't have much sympathy for them, if you want a ticket from A to B, buy a ticket from A to B; lack of flexibility is the 'price' if you like, of these tickets.

What evidence is there that they originally wanted a ticket to Eastleigh?

Going back to my personal experience of Waterloo to Upwey or Weymouth where either ticket was available for the same price; can anyone give me a good reason why the conditions of the ticket prevents alighting at Upwey if the destination is Weymouth?

They can't/won't give a good reason, and will just say "it's the rules!" Yeah it is the rules, but regular people who are not fares experts tend to agree that the rules are unfair/mad.

It is, however, rather more clear on Megatrain tickets though. That said, I don't think Megatrain should be allowed. Fine, use the term Megatrain for branding if you want, but the tickets should be standard Advance tickets using the "common conditions". Simplification was anything but!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have a point to point season ticket to Syon Lane which I use Monday to Friday for work. Some Saturdays I go to Brentford (one stop before Syon Lane). Is this against the rules?

Nope, perfectly valid on a season ticket. Seasons are valid for unlimited intermediate journeys.

The National Rail Conditions of Carraige states that you can start/end short and break your journey unless a restriction particular to that ticket says otherwise. It is, however, very difficult to find out if outward portions of Off Peak (SVR) or Super Off Peak (OPR/SSR) tickets allow BOJ or not. Prior to September 2008 all SVR and SSR tickets, when they were called Savers and SuperSavers, prohibited BOJ on the outward leg, but now it's difficult to find out the rule for a particular ticket. To make matters worse they have included other ticket types that come under the "Off Peak" umbrella e.g. CDR in the category that needs to be checked for BOJ restrictions. I believe that such restrictions are rather less enforceable/enforced than Advance BOJ conditions.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Megatrain trains and destinations were expanded significantly a couple of years ago and this was done in order to compete directly with the new Greyhound coach services operating out of Bournemouth, Portsmouth and Southampton. Greyhound don't run coaches to Eastleigh hence why there is no Megatrain fare to Eastleigh either, it is wholly reasonable to think that this couple may have had every intention of getting off at Eastleigh all along especially given that Eastleigh has no gates and rarely gets a proper revenue block. The passengers bought the tickets having agreed to the T+Cs, if they did this without reading the T+Cs then it is simply another case of 'caveat emptor'. It might just be the case that they knew full well what they were doing and that they expected to get away with it, if that was indeed the case then they have got what they deserved.

Until very recently my parents lived in Port Moresby in Papua New Guinea, when I used to fly there to see them from time to time I would have to pay up to £2000 to do so, whilst I didn't like it I did have a sufficiently good grasp of economics to understand why it happened. To get to Port Moresby I had to fly to Singapore, then Brisbane and then get a local flight to my destination but what was frustrating was that I could fly to Brisbane for £500-£600 but the final 800 miles 'home' increased the price by up to 300% even though Port Moresby is actually closer to London than Brisbane is.

It's simple economics, the more popular a place is the more competition there is and the more competition there is the lower prices will be. TOCs are not going to remove the 'Booked Train Only' type restrictions from AP tickets so people either have to accept the T+Cs and have low fares or get rid of AP fares entirely and return to mileage based pricing which would drive fares up.

 

[Deerfold]

My case where I always buy from the furthest of my two local stations is faily low risk - the worst that can happen is that I have to buy a new ticket on my local train (about £4) - I wouldn't be silly enough to buy one for the complete journey. We then change at Leeds and I make the connection I'm supposed to.

But in approx 120 weeks of return journeys (so about 50 short) I've not had to. I won't complain if one day I do.

 

[MikeWh]

I have a point to point season ticket to Syon Lane which I use Monday to Friday for work. Some Saturdays I go to Brentford (one stop before Syon Lane). Is this against the rules?

No, beacuse a point to point season ticket allows unlimited any time travel over the route in question either in full or in part. It is also priced accordingly. This thread is about (generally) cheap advance tickets which tie you to specific journeys. You are tied to:

1. The date on which you travel
2. The train on which you travel
3. The seat in which you sit
4. The length of the journey you must make

I agree with the first three. By agreeing with number two I also agree that break of journey (into two or more parts) cannot be allowed. I also agree with number four where there are good reasons to enforce it like not wanting to fill a long distance train from London to Penzance with lots of people who only want London to Reading and thus preventing others from making the whole trip. To do this I would expect there to be no cheap fare available on that train from London to Reading. I do not agree with preventing someone alighting one or two stops early where the same fare or smaller would have applied where the company would have no objection to me not using the ticket at all. Specifically this means that there would have been no opportunity for them to have resold my seat for those last couple of stops because in both cases (no use or 90% use) they thought that I would be using the seat.

Turn the arguement around. When they sell an advance ticket they should take my name and address. I should be told that if I don't use the ticket for whatever reason I will be liable for the full fare between the two stations, in addition to the fare I've paid. I will expect to receive a bill if this happens and will be summonsed to court if I refuse. Sound ridiculous? How is it different?

 

[yorkie]

It might just be the case that they knew full well what they were doing and that they expected to get away with it, if that was indeed the case then they have got what they deserved.

That is interesting, as a PF is intended for someone who merely makes a mistake rather than who intends to avoid paying the "correct" fare, is it not? So either you are suggesting that a PF is appropriate for people who intend to avoid paying correct fares, or that breaking a condition like this, intentionally, is actually not a serious issue at all and cannot be considered fare evasion, but that it does invalidate the ticket? I'd be more inclined to agree with the latter, but I don't agree with PFs in general anyway, nor the no ending short rule but that's another story.

 

[yorksrob]

Specifically this means that there would have been no opportunity for them to have resold my seat for those last couple of stops because in both cases (no use or 90% use) they thought that I would be using the seat.

Actually that's not necessarily true. Even though they wouldn't be able to sell the seat again for an advanced fare, the unoccupied seat would be available for walk on passengers, so the railway could not only collect the advanced fare, it could also potentially sell the seat many times over further down the line.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If they intended to do it, it is a serious issue. The company will have looked at it's routes and only enabled megatrain for those which they want it to run on. Otherwise every train would be a megatrain. The route was not Waterloo to Eastleigh, it was Waterloo - Southampton, and that route is what the ticket is valid for.
And how is a PF intended for people who make mistakes? What qualifies you to make that statement?

 

[MikeWh]

Actually that's not necessarily true. Even though they wouldn't be able to sell the seat again for an advanced fare, the unoccupied seat would be available for walk on passengers, so the railway could not only collect the advanced fare, it could also potentially sell the seat many times over further down the line.

Until the departure of the train and the subsequent ticket check they would not know that I wasn't using my seat. People would purchase walk-on tickets regardless of whether my seat was available or not. They wouldn't actually make any more money out of my absence. True, a passenger might have a slightly more comfortable journey if my prescence had meant that they would be standing, but there would be no financial benefit to the company.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....And how is a PF intended for people who make mistakes? What qualifies you to make that statement?

What Yorkie means is that the people it is aimed at, the serial offenders, know how to 'work the system'. So the majority of people it catches are those that make a mistake. Penalty fares are not the answer to the problem, but they are a deterant to the less determined.

 

[General Zod]

Pardon my ignorance but I have never purchased one of the cheap "Advance" fares online and would be interested to know that during the buying process are you clearly warned or shown some kind of small print which specifically states that you can only travel between the two points and if this isn't adhered to you will get PF'd ? I would wager that your casual customer doesn't read the CoCs related to that specific type of ticket as he / she probably takes certain rules or conditions for granted as they appear as "common sense" ; travelling short being one such condition.

Z

 

[Matt Taylor]

I don't see what mistake they made, they expressly agreed to the T+Cs but then conveniently ignored them when it suited them, a PF seems the appropriate course of action in this instance.

 

[MCR247]

I agree, serves them right

 

[yorksrob]

Until the departure of the train and the subsequent ticket check they would not know that I wasn't using my seat. People would purchase walk-on tickets regardless of whether my seat was available or not. They wouldn't actually make any more money out of my absence. True, a passenger might have a slightly more comfortable journey if my prescence had meant that they would be standing, but there would be no financial benefit to the company.

This is certainly true to an extent. But on many occasions when travelling on inter-city trains I've seen the guard walk up the train collecting reservation tags from unoccupied seats.

With regards to the walk-on fare, there might be no immediate financial benefit to the company, but over time if walk-on passengers have a generally more comfortable journey with more space, the whole walk-on product becomes more attractive and easier to sell. Particularly if this is on a busy train where walk-on passengers would otherwise be squeezed.

Your earlier example concerning passengers using long-distance advanced fares for short distance journeys such as London - Reading is an interesting one, although if this were the case, it would suggest to me that the walk-on fare between London and Reading was set comparatively too high compared to the longer journeys.

 

[MikeWh]

This is certainly true to an extent. But on many occasions when travelling on inter-city trains I've seen the guard walk up the train collecting reservation tags from unoccupied seats.

I'll bet that is only to make the seats obviously available though, he won't be communicating the availability to head office for extra sales.

With regards to the walk-on fare, there might be no immediate financial benefit to the company, but over time if walk-on passengers have a generally more comfortable journey with more space, the whole walk-on product becomes more attractive and easier to sell. Particularly if this is on a busy train where walk-on passengers would otherwise be squeezed.

So if I made my seat available a little earlier than the intended destination then they might benefit in the same way, yes?

Your earlier example concerning passengers using long-distance advanced fares for short distance journeys such as London - Reading is an interesting one, although if this were the case, it would suggest to me that the walk-on fare between London and Reading was set comparatively too high compared to the longer journeys.

I must admit this was just a scenario I thought up for why they might not want people to leave a train early. I don't know whether it exists anywhere. The walk on might be too high, or there might be advance capacity on other shorter distance services to say Bristol or Worcester.

 

[yorkie]

If they intended to do it, it is a serious issue. The company will have looked at it's routes and only enabled megatrain for those which they want it to run on. Otherwise every train would be a megatrain. The route was not Waterloo to Eastleigh, it was Waterloo - Southampton, and that route is what the ticket is valid for.

Let's not confuse the issue of "route", it clearly is the same route. It's getting off "short", nothing more and nothing less.

And how is a PF intended for people who make mistakes? What qualifies you to make that statement?

What do you think PFs are intended for? (I'll allow you to make a statement regardless of qualifications )

A penalty fare is simply a charge that National Express East Anglia is allowed to make under the Penalty Fare Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying his or her fare. ‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter. It is a criminal offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders under criminal law.

So if they are not intended for people who are attempting to avoid payment, and not intended for people who make mistakes, what are they intended for?

This is an interesting question, because simply asking it demonstrates that the PF system is flawed IMO.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Let's not confuse the issue of "route", it clearly is the same route. It's getting off "short", nothing more and nothing less.


What do you think PFs are intended for? (I'll allow you to make a statement regardless of qualifications )

Pedant! The ticket was valid (and clearly stated in the terms and conditions) from Waterloo to Southampton. Not Waterloo - Eastleigh, not Clapham - Winchester, not Woking to Basingstoke, it was Waterloo to Southampton.

As far as I am concerned (and care really) Penalty Fares are there to fine people not adhering to the conditions of their ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

Complete and utter madness. The couple probably didn't know they couldn't travel short on a megatrain ticket, but they were penalised for making a simple mistake.

I'm quite surprised they encountered RPIs at Eastleigh station late at night; there are no barriers there and I haven't experienced a ticket check there.

So maybe they weren't expecting to get caught then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is certainly true to an extent. But on many occasions when travelling on inter-city trains I've seen the guard walk up the train collecting reservation tags from unoccupied seats.

At the risk of going off-thread, this is simply to allow the seats to be obviously available (as said by another poster). A huge number of people don't sit in their reserved seat, either because they want a forward / rear / table seat, they decide to sit with their friends, they have missed the train, or they can't be bothered to find it. I probably remove about a third of all reservations.

 

[yorkie]

Pedant! The ticket was valid (and clearly stated in the terms and conditions) from Waterloo to Southampton. Not Waterloo - Eastleigh, not Clapham - Winchester, not Woking to Basingstoke, it was Waterloo to Southampton.

It's not a change of route though, however you word it. It may be pedantic, but going by a different route is not the same as stopping short. Route has a specific meaning in ticketing terms, and this is a different matter.

As far as I am concerned (and care really) Penalty Fares are there to fine people not adhering to the conditions of their ticket.

Interesting, you are suggesting they are unlawful then? If they are fines, they are unlawful.

And when you say "not adhering to the conditions", that's a huge cop-out besides many conditions not being adhered to (e.g. being off route, or on a time restricted train on a restricted ticket for which that train is not valid) must result in an excess (or new ticket) and not a penalty fare.