• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

When will we see the end of level crossings?

Status
Not open for further replies.

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,272
Location
Fenny Stratford
While I was driving past the location of first automatic level crossing in the United Kingdom today in Uttoxeter which opened in 1961 and later closed in 1965.

It made me think though when will we see then end of Level Crossings given that Network Rail is slowly replacing them and isn't installing any more new ones?

I reckon it won't be until at least 2050 but it will probably be further away than that.

We wont - there are far too many user worked crossings out in the country.


I know its one of many thousands that are pretty much the same, but as it's the closest to me i'll post it.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.6...203&h=100&yaw=73.96505&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

Just what exactly can be done to replace that? Other than close the crossing or the line itself.

In reality not much. However you could knock down Morrisons car park, the signal box and the row of houses beyond and build a bridge. It has happened in other places

Something similar was proposed for Fenny Stratford.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

High Dyke

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2013
Messages
4,281
Location
Yellabelly Country
And what about all the UWC crossings?

That one is easy. Google have invented self herding cows.
Judging by the UWC incident the other day at Melton Mowbray that may be the case... the cows seemingly knocked the phone off the hook, which dialled into the respective signal box. All the signalman could hear was a lot of cows licking their lips and rubbing against the post. :|
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,782
Location
Scotland
Just what exactly can be done to replace that? Other than close the crossing or the line itself.
Close West Dyke road at the crossing and upgrade Locke Road to take the additional traffic. Pedestrian bridge for the station and Morrisons.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,876
Location
Nottingham
Evidence, please?
LX's are perfectly safe if used correctly.

As has been said, you will NEVER eradicate them all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


1/ Education seems to work quite well!
2/ Rubbish!
3/ Very little.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Fine, now try looking at (say) Bromfield, Onibury, Craven Arms and Marshbrook crossings and tell me how you would deal with those?

Various studies and risk models agree that with the reduction in SPADs, level crossings are now the greatest source of safety risk on the railway. The fact it is mostly due to non-users breaking the rules doesn't affect that. Passing a signal at danger is also against the rules but nobody is seriously suggesting that all other mitigations should be abandoned and we should expect drivers never, ever to have a SPAD under any circumstances.

So the railway must do what it reasonably can to mitigate the level crossing risk, though arguably the road authorities should be paying for much f it as the need arises largely from the increase in traffic and the behaviour of some road users.

Any level crossing can be eliminated given infinite amounts of money and the willingness to upset people by destroying their houses, workplaces, views, or making them take a longer route. That doesn't mean it is always the right thing to do - best to tackle the crossings that have the greatest risk but are also the easiest to deal with. On an easy site the cost of a bridge is probably justified on pure financial grounds by avoiding the cost of maintaining and replacing the crossing over the 100+ year lifetime of the structure, to say nothing of the safety benefit if one or more accidents are avoided (which of course will never be known for certain but can be estimated from past data).
 
Last edited:

pdq

Member
Joined
7 Oct 2010
Messages
802
Lincoln high street is now pedestrianised at the point where the crossing is and other than the intransigence of a minority of locals, there is little or no need for the brayford wharf crossing ...
According to
http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2016-09-14/shoppers-shun-new-8-million-footbridge/ there is more than a minority of intransigent locals.

Shoppers on Lincoln High Street are shunning a new footbridge which has been built at a cost of £8 million.

Many say prefer to wait a few minutes at the barrier for trains to pass instead.

Network Rail says the bridge was installed to improve safety - but it's not proving popular.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
We wont - there are far too many user worked crossings out in the country.




In reality not much. However you could knock down Morrisons car park, the signal box and the row of houses beyond and build a bridge. It has happened in other places

Something similar was proposed for Fenny Stratford.

Looking at the Streetview of there, on the Morrisons side the ramp would probably have to start at the major junction to get the required height for a bridge to allow for future electrification. I think the crossing gates came up in a separate thread a year ago, can't remember if the signal box was a listed building
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Something similar was proposed for Fenny Stratford.

Interesting. I can see how you could fit in a bridge (one end being on a hill helps) but it'd cut off access to many properties, and it'd be almightily ugly. I'm unconvinced on a low-speed all-stations line where the train approaches the crossing from both directions at maybe 15mph that there is any need to do anything about it.

Of course EWR may change that.

You could just close it provided a footbridge with lifts was provided for rail passengers (the walk round is too long), but I doubt the people of Staple Hall Road would much like becoming a main road, and you'd have to do something about the terrible junction at Bilton Road - which to be fair needs doing anyway.
 
Last edited:

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,844
Does Network rail actually have a strategy to replace all level crossings, or rather is it just removing the ones on lines which have been upgraded to higher speed, or where the train frequency is causing severe inconvenience/traffic congestion?
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
Does Network rail actually have a strategy to replace all level crossings, or rather is it just removing the ones on lines which have been upgraded to higher speed, or where the train frequency is causing severe inconvenience/traffic congestion?

I think they're just focusing atm on ones with lots of incidents, eg near misses
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
7,711
Location
Leeds
Does Network rail actually have a strategy to replace all level crossings

I'm sure they don't plan that many decades or centuries ahead! Certainly among the ones they've reviewed in recent campaigns, most remain, perhaps improved; a few are replaced by bridges (with one bridge replacing several crossings if possible), and some are closed without a new bridge.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
According to
http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2016-09-14/shoppers-shun-new-8-million-footbridge/ there is more than a minority of intransigent locals.

Using the crossing correctly is not "intransigent" provided it remains open, and to be honest I would be one of them, walking up and over a bridge is a faff if you can just wait a couple of minutes and are not in a hurry. Where the bridge will improve safety is that if someone is in a hurry they may be more inclined to use it than trespass on the railway by jumping barriers or cutting it fine.

Those who would prefer to wait and avoid faffing with stairs/lifts can continue to do so - that is not itself a problem.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,244
Location
Torbay
Using the crossing correctly is not "intransigent" provided it remains open, and to be honest I would be one of them, walking up and over a bridge is a faff if you can just wait a couple of minutes and are not in a hurry. Where the bridge will improve safety is that if someone is in a hurry they may be more inclined to use it than trespass on the railway by jumping barriers or cutting it fine.

Those who would prefer to wait and avoid faffing with stairs/lifts can continue to do so - that is not itself a problem.

If the street is now completely pedestrianised as suggested previously I would have thought a pedestrian underpass would have been preferable to allow complete crossing closure at Lincoln High Street. The advantage would have been a much reduced depth and width compared to any vehicular underpass, so allowing fairly short ramps to suffice for the level change, Such underpasses have been empoyed widely in Holland in recent years for instance to eliminate many crossings. A problem might have been the water level nearby meaning flooding could be difficult to account for (how do the Dutch manage this?) and, despite general pedestrianisation, there may still be some remaining rights for vehicular access at this site, for deliveries or emergency vehicles perhaps?

Apart from the safety angle, level crossings on busy railways also represent a significant performance risk. If barriers can't be closed or crossing clear confirmed promptly, then delays start to rack up quickly.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,844
I'm sure they don't plan that many decades or centuries ahead! Certainly among the ones they've reviewed in recent campaigns, most remain, perhaps improved; a few are replaced by bridges (with one bridge replacing several crossings if possible), and some are closed without a new bridge.

I don't mean a detailed costed plan to an exact timetable, but it's common to stick long term aspirations into a strategy, even if the completion date is either unspecified or so distant to be meaningless!
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,782
Location
Scotland
Easy. Knock down buildings, move the road, build a bridge.
Which goes to prove you haven't bothered to look and haven't got a clue how impossible that would be in these situations, and many others across the UK.
I think Bald Rick's post was meant to indicate that there's always a technical solution, even if it's not acceptable on grounds of cost, social or environmental grounds. Any road can be moved or closed, any railway can be bridged, any building can be demolished if the will/money is there.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
For a new build underpass (road or pedestrian only), what's the steepest gradient allowed?
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
10,678
Location
Redcar
Close West Dyke road at the crossing and upgrade Locke Road to take the additional traffic. Pedestrian bridge for the station and Morrisons.

And if you were familiar with the area, you would realise just how unworkable that is.

For starters, if you close the one on West Dyke, you must also surely be closing the one on Redcar Lane as well. Upgrading Locke Road is near impossible, one side has the park, the other has the college and given there is already a four way traffic light system in place, traffic can be gridlocked as it is.

Locke Road leads on to Trafalgar Terrace, you cannot send thousands of cars per day down here, thats without trying to feed them on to Coatham Road. Alternatively, Locke Road leads on to Kirkleatham Street, which in itself isn't really viable for an upgrade.

Not viable and not needed.
 

notlob.divad

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,609
For a new build underpass (road or pedestrian only), what's the steepest gradient allowed?

Surely the pedestrian only depends on whether you are building it as a ramp, or as a steps and a lift? If you can fund a vertical lift shaft on either side, then the gradient would be the same as a standard flight of public steps, or if you want to be really fancy you could throw some escalators in there.

For roadways I suspect you will find an answer in This Document
 

Harbon 1

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2011
Messages
1,020
Location
Burton on Trent
Lincoln high street is now pedestrianised at the point where the crossing is and o ther than the intransigence of a minority of locals , there is little or no need for the brayford wharf crossing ... Great Northern terrace could be replaced but would need a fair bit of work ( e.g. the inner ring joining south park to Allenby road across the cowpaddle and along the 'watersides' ...


Brayford wharf is now needed for the mass of traffic that is being turned off high street at the moment.
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,132
just thinking of a few of local examples quickly shows that level crossings will never be eliminated.
First, Bare Lane. A bridge would be impossible, and blocking the road to traffic unthinkable.
Next, Hest Bank. No room for a bridge, and it wouldn't be cost effective for the handful of properties. You could perhaps compulsory purchase and demolish the properties, but would that be a valid use of money? And people would still want access to the beach.
Third, Silverdale. Another essential road, in the country on flat boggy marshland near the sea. Engineering a bridge would be "interesting" to say the least, especially as it would impinge on a national nature reserve.
Another problem arises if you look at the stretch of track between Silverdale and Arnside - there you have a series of footpath crossings (four or five) within a mile or so. Blind, unprotected, dangerous, all need closing. But you're in an AONB, shutting the paths would be unacceptable, while permission would never be granted for replacement footbridges. They're dangerous and presumably trains have to slow for them - but in recent years there's not been an incident on them. Would the cost of eliminating them be justified? Would the removal of the speed restriction make much difference to timings between Arnside and Carnforth?
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,272
Location
Fenny Stratford
Interesting. I can see how you could fit in a bridge (one end being on a hill helps) but it'd cut off access to many properties, and it'd be almightily ugly. I'm unconvinced on a low-speed all-stations line where the train approaches the crossing from both directions at maybe 15mph that there is any need to do anything about it.

Of course EWR may change that.

You could just close it provided a footbridge with lifts was provided for rail passengers (the walk round is too long), but I doubt the people of Staple Hall Road would much like becoming a main road, and you'd have to do something about the terrible junction at Bilton Road - which to be fair needs doing anyway.

It was the EWR proposals that went out for public consultation. The plan suggested knocking down everything on Simpson Road between the Red Lion junction and the new houses/flats near the roundabout.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
Wouldn't, to be fair, be a great loss :)

It would probably be worth the local council replacing one of the car parks either side of the railway line with a bus station and maybe finding a suitable site on the edge of the town for a park and ride site
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It would probably be worth the local council replacing one of the car parks either side of the railway line with a bus station and maybe finding a suitable site on the edge of the town for a park and ride site

Sorry, I don't follow. Fenny Stratford would not be a sensible place for any kind of park and ride, nor bus interchange. Bletchley station is a better location for the latter, the former would be better on farmland near the A5 roundabout and served by a bus to CMK.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,876
Location
Nottingham
Surely the pedestrian only depends on whether you are building it as a ramp, or as a steps and a lift? If you can fund a vertical lift shaft on either side, then the gradient would be the same as a standard flight of public steps, or if you want to be really fancy you could throw some escalators in there.

The standard for a wheelchair-compatible ramp is 1 in 20, probably including some level sections to prevent a runaway. So a pedestrian underpass without lifts is going to need at least 60m of ramp on level ground, and more if the ramp is chasing an existing slope. This could be shortened by making it double back, but it would then need stairs as a shortcut otherwise people who didn't have to use it would consider it far to long to be worth considering. The end result would be very similar to those subways of the 60s and 70s that everybody hates (cue response from someone on here that loves them...).

An underpass is more difficult and expensive than a bridge because it involves digging under the railway and road, disrupting both and probably affecting lots of utilities too. For a simple footbridge it's only necessary to clear space for the footings and lift it into place, though the one at Lincoln was more complicated and involved demolishing a building.
 
Last edited:

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,244
Location
Torbay
The standard for a wheelchair-compatible ramp is 1 in 20, probably including some level sections to prevent a runaway. So a pedestrian underpass without lifts is going to need at least 60m of ramp on level ground, and more if the ramp is chasing an existing slope. This could be shortened by making it double back, but it would then need stairs as a shortcut otherwise people who didn't have to use it would consider it far to long to be worth considering. The end result would be very similar to those subways of the 60s and 70s that everybody hates (cue response from someone on here that loves them...).

An underpass is more difficult and expensive than a bridge because it involves digging under the railway and road, disrupting both and probably affecting lots of utilities too. For a simple footbridge it's only necessary to clear space for the footings and lift it into place, though the one at Lincoln was more complicated and involved demolishing a building.

Flat landings are required at least every 20m along a slope ISTR. The advantage of taking pedestrians under railways rather than over electrification clearances is the smaller vertical difference in levels involved. I don't deny there were some horrible 1960s 'brutalist' municipal underpasses, but careful design with good sightlines, lighting and quality materials situated in busy areas can produce a much more acceptable safe environment, no worse at least than windswept high open footbridges at the top of unending ramps into the sky. Utilties, groundwater etc are all major challenges I agree.
 

Tio Terry

Member
Joined
2 May 2014
Messages
1,178
Location
Spain
We will only abolish all level crossings when we close all the railway lines that they cross. That will be when we have perfected teletransporting so we no longer need to travel by train. Beam me up Scotty!

If you look at my native Norfolk and the number of crossings between fields that are used for agriculture purposes only there is little chance of ever producing a business case for replacing them with bridges - think Berney Arms!
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,640
Some foot crossings I think are a bit dicey and don't give the 10 seconds sighting track workers require but the vast majority of crossings are perfectly safe as long as you're not an utter idiot intent on misusing them.
There's one foot crossing near Gomshall where you go up a bank then cross the line and go down another bank. Most extreme one I've seen but I'm sure there are others.

It's not cost effective to build a bridge so only option would be to close it and it's probably a public right of way so not something that can be so easily closed.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
All that may be true, but there is another reason too. The railway (over the years since about 1870) has achieved its safety record by successively identifying and knocking off the highest risks to passengers, employees and the general public. Level crossings are now the highest risk so they are getting the treatment. It's a process that is very hard to stop - but why would we want to? An accident is (at best) very unpleasant and disturbing for the train crew involved, even if caused by idiocy.
Out of interest, why weren't level crossing identified as dangerous say 60 years ago?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

urbophile

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2015
Messages
2,073
Location
Liverpool
The OP should take a ride from Liverpool to Southport and will probably find the answer to the question is Never.

Hmmm! Unlike many lightly-used rural lines, this has a frequent service of 3rd-rail electric trains. I'm surprised that there aren't more accidents at the crossings on this line. Admittedly most of the streets involved are fairly minor, but I was at Birkdale this afternoon where the level crossing, adjacent to the station platforms, serves a fairly busy suburban high street. It's a dilemma because there doesn't seem to be an easy way of building either a bridge or an underpass.

This same afternoon I used the pedestrian crossing north of Freshfield station and although I looked carefully and stood back (wisely) one train had just passed, immediately followed by one going in the opposite direction. Had I not been concentrating or particularly aware (trains go at a fair whack at that point) I might have started crossing after the first train had passed with disastrous consequences.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,640
Looking at the Streetview of there, on the Morrisons side the ramp would probably have to start at the major junction to get the required height for a bridge to allow for future electrification. I think the crossing gates came up in a separate thread a year ago, can't remember if the signal box was a listed building
Listed buildings can be moved. It happened to the old Oxford station.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top